The Morality of Revenge

07 July 2016

我们都经历过报复的欲望,无论是某个混蛋在路上抢了你的路,还是你发现你的伴侣出轨了。当你被冤枉时,想要报复是人类的自然反应。我们这周要问的问题是这种报复的欲望是否应该被我们付诸行动。复仇是道德的吗?

When we’re motivated to seek revenge, it’s often out of a sense of fairness. If an injustice has been committed, then the only way to restore balance in the moral universe is if the wrongdoers pay for what they’ve done. Justice will not prevail until those who have caused suffering are made to suffer themselves. This is the basic premise of every Clint Eastwood movie ever made. And it can be very satisfying to see the bad guy finally get his comeuppances, though often settling the score seems to create more victims than it avenges. In the movies, at least, revenge escalates violence, so what started as a just and honorable quest ends up in a blood bath. It’s hard to see how that can restore balance in the moral universe.

In the real world, seeking payback can also lead to unfortunate consequences. Road rage has become a serious problem in the US and, just this month,the governor of California signed a new law into the books to combat “revenge porn”——最近出现的一种现象是,痛苦的前任在专门的网站上发布他们前情人的私密的性照片。纽约也在考虑类似但范围更广的立法来处理这个问题。

So, the desire for revenge is often motivated from spite, bitterness, and an over-bloated ego, and even when the goal is honorable and the cause just, revenge can create more suffering and injustice in the world. But does it follow from this that revenge is always a bad thing?

Imagine someone commits a heinous crime against someone you love. Wouldn’t you want that person to suffer to pay for what they did? Wouldn’t you want revenge? Surely, that’s what the criminal justice system was created to provide — payback. Otherwise, why does the state punish wrongdoers? Anyone seriously proposing that punishment is about deterring crime or rehabilitating criminals is living in a fantasy world. It’s pretty clear from the empirical evidence that it does neither.

不法之徒得不到应有的惩罚,正义才会得到伸张。这就是"以眼还眼"的意思。当然,甘地有句名言:“以眼还眼会让整个世界变得盲目。”However, Gandhi did not understand the point of thatOld Testamentprescription. That victims would seek revenge was already taken as a given. So, “An eye for an eye” is not a cryforrevenge — it’s a call tolimitrevenge so that it’s proportionate to the crime. You can take an eye for an eye, but no more, and that should be the end of the matter. It’s when we start taking two eyes for an eye that the whole world becomes blind.

If we follow this line of thinking, then how far do we go? If someone takes a life, do we take theirs? Personally, I’m against the death penalty, yet I understand why the families of those killed in heinous crimes might believe that the perpetrators deserve to be put to death. My difficulty with the death penalty goes beyond the obvious problems with the state of the criminal justice system in this country. Even if you were for the death penalty in principle, a quick look at who’s on death row — a lot of poor people and people of color who don’t have access to the legal and monetary resources needed to defend themselves properly — reveals deep injustice.

暂且把这些问题放在一边,想象一下,我们有一个完美的司法系统,它不会对那些被社会边缘化的人进行不公正的歧视,平等地对待所有受害者的生命,并给予持续的惩罚。Are there people that trulydeserveto die for their crimes? And if you believe that, do you think it’s the state’s job to put those people to death?

Francis Bacon once said, “In taking revenge, a man is but even with his enemy; but in passing it over, he is superior; for it is a prince’s part to pardon.” In theNew Testament我们得到了类似的信息——当你被打了一巴掌,把另一张脸转过去。我们被要求宽恕,而不是寻求报复。宽恕是一件非常强大的事情。Look at what they did in South Africa with theTruth and Reconciliation Commission. Restorative justice can help victims find lasting peace, and it can bring about real rehabilitation for the perpetrators of crime. Of course, it only works when the perpetrators aregenuinelywilling to accept responsibility and make amends. And the victims have to want it too. You can’t force forgiveness.

So, which path is the right one to take? Do we seek payback or do we look for forgiveness? Are there crimes that should never be forgiven? What do you think—does justice mean that we reward good deeds, punish bad, and that everyone gets their just deserts?

Comments(16)


Laura Maguire's picture

Laura Maguire

Wednesday, October 16, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

Sorry folks - we had to reset

对不起,我们不得不重置我们的网站,所以我们失去了所有的评论后,周日!这是我这周节目的博客的转载。

Guest's picture

Guest

Wednesday, October 16, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

This show would better be

This show would better be entitled the immorality of revenge. Your lawyer is saying justice and revenge are the same thing. I couldn't disagree more. YThe show demonstrated zero understanding of the unjust conditions that underly perpetration in many cases. Those are unjust conditions. Victims should not decide what happens to perpetrators. Often victims are indeed part of the dynamic. Not always. But sometimes. Your speaker lacks a sense of justice because he is so keen on revenge. I believe the desire for revenge should not be indulged.

Guest's picture

Guest

Thursday, October 17, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

There are four reasons for

惩罚/监禁有四个原因。不知何故,他们忽视了社会保护,这是主要原因之一。一个犯了值得监禁的罪行的人,是指对他的行为造成的伤害表现出一种想要造成伤害的欲望或冷漠/疏忽的人。世界杯赛程2022赛程表欧洲区这使得他很可能重蹈覆辙。监禁是社会选择自卫的一种方式。
约翰认为美国追杀本拉登是出于报复。严重吗?从1993年开始,他和他发起的运动精心策划和策划了几次袭击:世界贸易中心(1993年)、美国驻非洲大使馆、9/11、马德里、伦敦、巴厘岛……其他几次攻击都失败了。杀死本拉登仅仅是出于报复,甚至主要是出于报复的想法,在很大程度上让人难以相信。
Another reason, deterrence, is quite powerful. The problem with eye-for-an-eye or commensurate punishment is that, unless the perpetrator believes with certainty that he would be caught, commensurate punishment cannot deter. If I could steal $100,000 and at worst have to repay the $100,000, then why not do it? I'd have nothing to lose, and $100,000 to gain! Granted there is no credible evidence that the death penalty is a deterrent to murder compared with life-imprisonment, but only naivete could allow one to conclude that would-be criminals do not weigh potential incarceration.
Additionally, in criminal proceedings, the victim (or the victim's family) can become a witness, only insofar as he has something material to contribute -- material in the determination of guilty or not guilty. Otherwise, to describe the extent of the harm incites emotions in the jurors, who ought to render their judgements dispassionately. Once found guilty, then victims and their families can testify, in the sentencing phase.
Emotional decisions can too easily compound one injustice, the harm caused to the victim, with a second injustice, a wrongful conviction, because jurors will be more likely to want to search for someone to blame.
Lastly, the guest's argument seems to be that since vengeance feels good and is natural, it is moral. Yet monogamy is rare in Nature and for many does not feel good; theft feels good and is natural, particularly when the perpetrator can "get away with it." I thought that the very idea of morality, the development of moral codes, is to rise above what is natural, what does not need to be taught or instilled.

MJA's picture

MJA

Friday, October 18, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

I think the best revenge is

I think the best revenge is to turn the other cheek. But be forewarned, that kind of morality takes the most practice and strength. =

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, October 19, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

I felt that the guest came

我觉得客人很危险地接近于支持主观公正——因为你觉得自己被冤枉了,你有权对你认为是肇事者的人寻求公正。他举了一个极端的例子——一个孩子的凶手利用法律漏洞获得了减刑。那不太明确的情况呢,当罪行没有被承认,当罪行不是十恶不赦的时候?在我看来,没有什么比允许主观公正更危险的了。没有过程,没有理由,没有证据评估。这是非法的。
On a completely different note, I really disliked that the guest said of a caller, "I'm sure she's lovely, but [her ideas are ridiculous]." I thought it was rude and dismissive. There are more respectful ways of disagreeing.

Guest's picture

Guest

Sunday, October 20, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

I think we have to

I think we have to differentiate revenge first. As the name and description implies, it is a premeditated action to return the pain that was inflicted. In nature, when a tiger bites your leg of after you've poked it with a stick, we do not call it revenge, instead it is normal behavior for the animal in question: it simply defends it's own territory and it's own life. Assuming animals do not have higher thinking -like humans and other primates- this causal relationship is almost automatic. Now when applied to humans, we can say the same. When someone attacks you, the autonomous nervous system has only two choices:
1) release adrenaline to the muscles and prepare to run.
2) release adrenaline to the muscles and get ready to fight.
Still, we are human and we are capable of higher thinking. We can basically override our basic instincts, we can master our bodily responses. So we can choose to defuse the situation for our own best interest, because every fight has victims on both sides. We can look into the future, and we can predict that we might get hurt, die or will be arrested if we lose our cool. But then the question arises: what is this emotion that we call revenge? especially after the situation that took place has past. I think it has to do with our ego and the need to take action upon inflicted pain.
战斗或逃跑的选择并不能让我们满足,在这种行为中我们的自尊可能会受到伤害。其他人见证了我们的耻辱,我们的内疚,我们的非人化和施加的痛苦。由于人类是社会动物,确实有一种等级制度或等级秩序,在某种情况下的社会退化使我们想要恢复原来的社会地位。所以基本的领土行为又回来了。我们要么让它过去,可能满足于自己较低的社会地位,要么采取报复行动来恢复我们的社会地位。这里的悖论是,通过报复的行为,我们甚至可能会在社会阶梯上走得更远。另一方面,我们也可能被视为强有力的领导者。无论如何,这是一种高度复杂的情感。

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Monday, October 21, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

A POUND OF DETERRENT IS WORTH

一磅威慑抵得上一吨报复。
正如每个人都敏锐地意识到的那样,罪犯和反社会者正在以前所未有的惊人速度谋杀毫无准备的旁观者。因此,对枪支的需求日益增加和扩散。我的妻子长期以来一直反对枪支文化,现在终于意识到,最近对枪支法的修改早该如此了。我们很快就会进行一些射击探险,这样她就能理解并熟练地使用一支或多支手枪。道德被定罪。没有人可以不战而降。
Cordially.
Neuman.

Guest's picture

Guest

Wednesday, October 23, 2013 -- 5:00 PM

I appreciate higher thinking

I appreciate higher thinking as much as the next homo sapient. This evening, though, I encountered a paradigm not previously known. A person new to my realm of experience was speaking of something called a Canadian Tuxedo party. Had never heard of this. Seems people show up, dressed head-to-toe in denim, and do whatever else they may do to denigrate Canada and Canadian culture. Jane (not her real name) is around thirty-five years of age. I asked her what she knew about Canada. She admitted not much. I asked her what she thought about such tuxedo parties. Her response was, well, it was what we did. And so, here we go and there we are...oh, by the way, Canadian tuxedos look pretty much like American tuxedos. Unless someone wants something different.

Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, November 8, 2013 -- 4:00 PM

宽恕是强大?I

宽恕是强大?我必须承认我以前从未听说过。许多年前(嗯,十多年前,不到二十年前),我在马里兰州参加了一个雇主赞助的为期一周的培训课程。培训是由来自著名大学的知名人士进行的。主题:中介。在这一周中,一位老师提出了道歉是调停纠纷的有力工具的观点。我想是这样的,但我从来没有真正找到答案,因为在训练和花费了国家的钱之后,我从来没有机会锻炼我所获得的技能:训练成为一个调解人,但从来没有机会发展这种技能。我从来没想过。那么,道歉和原谅是一样的吗?好吧,它们可能在意图上是近亲,但当它们的应用仅仅是façade时,它们都不值得唾骂。 Ethically, 21st century homo sapiens is mostly bankrupt, in my view. You may quote me, if you wish. The notion is not new.(After thought: The political jackass who sent me to mediation training lost his job, only to be promoted to another political jackass position---hmmph.)

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Thursday, July 7, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

I have heard most of the

I have heard most of the platitudes and considered the latitudes associated with this age-old question. I have also thought about what a wise former employer used to say: You've got to pay the price. If someone wrongs you, on whatever level, there is a price to pay. You either get mad or you get even. Because if you immediately forgive or "turn the other cheek", it is your privilege to be slapped again. But, it is not solely for yourself that you need to respond proactively to the wrongdoer. It is for the benefit of others who may suffer from his wrath when he has faced no retribution and no credible deterrence from those previously harmed. People who are allowed to get away with murder will often murder again if there has been no penalty. Old habits are hard to break, so do your fellows a favor: pay the price. Discourage the scoundrel. Display some fortitude. Do not fall prey to mis-directed magnanimity. Or as bikers call it: pussification.
Neuman

Gary M Washburn's picture

Gary M Washburn

Thursday, July 7, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

Lex talionis is a maximum,

Lex talionis is a maximum, not a minimum. In a philosophical discussion this should suffice, but apparently this is a room where the joke needs to be explained. That is, law is enacted amongst us to limit and eliminate revenge. Or, as Gandhi is reputed to say, "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind!" Furthermore, some people are in a peremptory position over us which permits them to take preemptive action undercutting the ability to retaliate. And without an ethic that prevents that preemptive strike the law itself is undermined in its legitimate meaning as the suppression of revenge, and of its cause
Though I have to admit a certain sympathy with the character played by Michael Palin in the movie A Fish Called Wanda, where, in the final scene, he shouts, repeatedly, the single word, "Revenge!"

Gerald Fnord's picture

Gerald Fnord

Saturday, July 9, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

People want all sorts of

People want all sorts of things, from vengeance to happiness and security for all to sex with their children to forbidding marriages between people of different races. Civilisation is a process of deciding which are worthy (or, less stridently moralistically, more beneficial, though there is of course a moral judgement there as well) and which are not, and particularly which of those are worthy of being backed by the power of the locally-relevant force monopoly. What is 'natural' may work well for vands of thirty to fifty hunter-gatherers, being they Rousseavian paragons or nasty, brutish, poor, and short, but we can do better, we have, and the better we have done, the less we've craved vengeance.
And to say that we are able to recognise proportional revenge as embodied in the law and have no long-standing feuds is ridiculous in the extreme: from the Israeli-Palestinian borders to Dallas to every wronged-feeling jerk with a gun to a U.K.I.P., Golden Dawn, or Trump rally we see humans utterly unable to see the limits of the wrongs done to them or of its meet recompense.

marxplank's picture

marxplank

Saturday, July 9, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

Your guest should apologize

Your guest should apologize to the lady that mentioned new brain and old brain. He called her silly, which revealed his ignorance and came across as very arrogant.
众所周知,我们的大脑是分层结构的,旧大脑,也被称为爬行动物的大脑,负责非常直接的反应,如逃跑或战斗。除此之外,哺乳动物的大脑也得到了发展,并负责社会行为(说得太简单了)。除此之外,新皮层能够进行理性思考。很明显她指的就是这个你的客人居然不知道。如果他对打电话来的人不那么居高临下,会更适合他。

kanasanjee's picture

kanasanjee

Saturday, July 9, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

Your guest today ("Revenge")

Your guest today ("Revenge") is an absolute jerk and a sexist PIG. Referring to a caller as "Lovely" and "Silly" was outright condescending and the comment of coupling her with the other caller was downright reprehensible. You guys really should have taken him to task. Reflect (Philosophize) on your inability to confront such horrible sexism

Gary M Washburn's picture

Gary M Washburn

Monday, July 25, 2016 -- 5:00 PM

It's a matter of which polity

这是一个人们感觉与哪个政体最一致的问题。复仇永远不是伸张正义。积极地思考什么是正义,正确的和错误的,是无益的。只要我们的目标是“伸张正义”,我们就会陷入寻找使报复和报复合法化的方法的陷阱。或者,在这件事上,粗鲁或生气。建立一套为任何形式的惩罚性措施辩护的制度是一件非常可疑的事情。恢复和平是法律唯一合理的意义,就像习俗和礼貌一样(它们不是傲慢的)。不公正从来都不是孤立事件。它需要社会支持。人们必须感到他们所联合的政体是他们的后盾。 One person cannot enslave another alone, or throw the first stone in a riot. It requires a polity. The point of justice, then, is to deny that polity by opening avenues of resolution between all divisions in the community. Ethos, that is, must be inclusive, and never exclusive. People must feel embraced and never shut out. And that means the violator must be made to find a polity that will naturalize him or her to that embrace rather than to the exclusion of the other. Revenge, retribution, and even punishment, is never doing justice. But how hard it is to convince any polity that peace is the only just response to political division, any more than that reconciliation is the only just response to acts of violence or insult, or just bad manners!

cybersecuritylawsrc's picture

cybersecuritylawsrc

Thursday, August 5, 2021 -- 3:45 AM

The uploading or posting, or

The uploading or posting, or threat of posting, of sexually explicit photographs or videos online, without the consent of those depicted, is used to threaten, control, abuse, bully and humiliate those in the images or film. It is a gross violation of an individual’s privacy. The explicit nature of the images is simply the method or vehicle through which the revenge is exacted.