Poetry As a Way of Knowing

30 March 2012

If the title of this week’s show sounds strange, it may be because we don’t normally think of poetry as being in the business of producing knowledge. Poetry, we might think, is about capturing impressions and expressing feelings. The goal of poetry is not todescribe他的整个世界。毕竟,这就是科学的作用。

I think this is an arbitrarily narrow view of things. Can't poetry capture impressions, express feelings, and also be a source of knowledge? And why should we suppose science has a monopoly on knowledge? Surely there are lots of things we know that we don’t learn from science. Science is in the business of producing knowledge, but we acquire knowledge in all sorts of other ways too. For example, you don’t need to study biology to learn how to ride a bike.

Of course, being able to ride a bike is practical skill (knowing-how) and not what philosophers callpropositionalknowledge (knowing-that), which is what science deals in. So, if we’re just talking practical skills, the claim that poetry could be a way of knowing sounds less controversial. When you study poetry, presumably you develop many skills, like learning how to interpret a poem, which involves other skills, like how to identify and understand metaphor, how to measure meter, and so on. And maybe if you read a lot of poetry you also develop another skill, namely how towritepoetry. So, in that sense, it’s easy to see how poetry could be a way of knowing.

但如果这就是我们说的“诗歌作为一种认知方式”的全部意思,那么这周的节目就不会很有趣了!就像我们学习骑自行车不是为了知道如何踩踏板、引导车轮和拉刹车一样,我们读诗也不只是为了培养读诗的技能。我们骑自行车是为了它带来的所有回报,比如健身,欣赏美丽的风景,去不污染环境的地方。诗歌也一定会有类似的回报——我们一定会从阅读诗歌中获得其他东西。

That may be the case, but we have not yet established whether poetry gives us specificallypropositionalknowledge, whether it tells usfacts用和科学一样的方式来观察世界。不过,我们在这里应该小心。也许诗歌确实为我们提供了命题性的知识,但它是以一种与科学截然不同的方式。这两门学科显然是截然不同的,这也正是为什么说诗歌可以教给我们事实的建议一开始听起来很奇怪的原因。诗歌的全部意义似乎不在于陈述事实,而在于以一种创造性和想象力的方式使用语言来表达思想、感情和印象。这是否最终会导致命题性知识的产生还是一个悬而未决的问题。

So far, I have mentioned two kinds of knowledge—practicalknowledge andpropositionalknowledge. To say that poetry gives us the first didn’t seem like a very interesting claim. To say that it leads to the second did sound interesting, but we would need to know more about exactly how this could be achieved.

There is also a third possibility, and that is that poetry gives usphenomenalknowledge, or knowledge about what it’s like to have a particular kind of experience. In a famous paper (“What Is It Like to Be a Bat?”), philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that thesubjectiveexperience of something, like being a bat that can perceive its environment through echolocation, cannot be reduced toobjectivefacts, like a scientific description of echolocation. Perhaps poetry gives us this third kind of knowledge. Perhaps through its creative use of language, poetry provides a unique window into subjective experience.

为了在这里得到一些答案,我们或许应该首先说出我们在谈论“诗歌”时的确切意思。例如,它与诗歌写作的散文或押韵有何不同?所有的诗歌都有什么共同的本质特征吗?或者它们的共性更像是维特根斯坦所说的“家族相似性”?

一旦我们回答了这些问题,我们就可以转向其他问题:诗歌能揭示世界的什么?通过读诗,我们是否获得了一些独特的见解?它能帮助我们更好地理解我们自己和我们的经历吗?或者仅仅是快乐的源泉?

Joining us this week to think about these issues is award-winning poet, translator, and essayist Jane Hirshfield.

Comments(19)


Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, March 30, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Poetry

Poetry
When words have no rules or regulations
And a sentence has no bounds
That is where the poet hides
Where truth can still be found
The word is mightier than the sword they say
When words are truly free
Poetry is the words of a poet
Then the poet has the power of Thee
There is a lesson to learn in poetry
A remedy and a cure
For poetry are words of freedom
And in freedom the truth shall set us free
What is the truth One wonders
In the phrase and phrases of a rhyme
The true poetry of a free poet
Will bring equality to All in Just time
For freedom is equality
Unity of not only mankind
The true words of a poets? poetry
Is the beautiful true Oneness of All kind.
=
MJA

Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, March 30, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Poetry? OK. Now you are

Poetry? OK. Now you are getting into my life. And that of a friend and brother in Canada. Let me explain. My writing began as poetry. Short-lived, but fun-all, or most all, of my epics were lost during my visit to Canada in 1969. Long time ago. Well, three and four decades later, I began to write prose; while that other person mentioned above was writing poetry. He seems to be getting recognition now. About time, I think. If you'd like to see some of his ideas; read some of his poems?--- go to:www.larryvanpelt.com. What makes a great poet? Could be luck. Or charisma. Or....language skill? Huh? Or is it all just commerce? I think so, to wit:
几天前,我们的电干衣机坏了。滚筒不转了,但马达还在运转。我的评估是:腰带断了。因此,由于我没有修理电器的经验,又不想成为商业的牺牲品,我买了一条新皮带,开始把烘干机拆开。大约两天后,烘干机修好了,20美元加上我的时间和经验。比“商业”方式要好,后者可能要花费我150美元,甚至更多……这也许就是商业和艺术之间的区别,或者……也许根本没有区别。
Nothing poetic about that, really. Ye Haw---pretty much.

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Poetry's discursive reply to

Poetry's discursive reply to the question, What is it like to be human?

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

the transformation of

the transformation of neuronal pathways in the brain from reading/studying poetry is some very interesting research...
RIP Adrienne Rich!

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Your Own Personal Genius

Your Own Personal Genius
A man can rationalize anything.
在必要的时候,这项任务可以用一个邪恶天才的老练来完成。
荒谬和过度是齐头并进的。
A good life is beautiful life and aesthetically speaking , beauty rests in proper proportions.
The foundational presuppositions of sophomoric metaphysicans can conjure superstitions that stifle sentimental intuition.
神的启示与事实相反,无非是虚构。
The hallmark of balanced philosophy is found in its allencompassing approach.
Sticking to the ruts of dogma greatly restrict the search for truth.
Thoughtful allegories can be meaningful tools to help men get on with their day to day existence.
The danger lies in getting lost in the words of metaphor or of delusional schizophrenic omnipotents, thus thinking ourselves into
believing what we've read or wrote.
Such occurrences, as documented by observers of history, have brought less enlightenment to the well read
比使高贵和普通的人聪明或过早地死去。

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

We can no longer talk to the

我们再也无法与一战的老兵交谈,但他们留下了极其丰富的诗歌遗产。据估计,在1914年至1918年间,约有500万首诗歌被创作出来,尽管只有一小部分留存了下来,但它以一种历史散文永远无法比拟的方式反映了现实。
WWI began with heroic poetry as idealistic young men marched off to the battlefield believing that if they did their duty the war would be over by Christmas. By 1916, the war was at a stalemate, which the Germans tried to break by a massive offensive at Verdun. Tha Allies responded with a counter-offensive at the river Somme. By the end of 1916, one-and-a half million men had been killed, wounded or taken prisoner with a minor adjustment of the front line. The public on both sides clamored for peace and President Wilson offered to broker it. Had democracy prevailed, that would have been the end of the war; but, of course it wasn't. The politicians and generals on both sides insisted on outrageous demands that the other could not possibly accept (much as is happening in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict today) and the war continued. The poetry, especially that of the soldier-poets changed dramatically, now telling of hardship, senseless waste of youth and a longing for peace.
当我年轻的时候,我曾高度评价英雄的诗歌,并对那些认为战争是浪费和负担的人的消极态度感到惊讶;现在,作为一个成年人,我发现我完全颠倒了。

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

jane quoted a poet saying....

jane quoted a poet saying.........
was it because i was thinking of him that he appeared
or was it because i was dreaming of him that i awakened
is that right and who is the poet?

Guest's picture

Guest

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

这样对吗??

这样对吗??
was it because i was thinking of him that he apperaed
or was it because i was dreaming of him that i awakened?

Devon's picture

Devon

Saturday, March 31, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

The poet was Ono no Komachi

The poet was Ono no Komachi (ca. 850) --
Was it because I was thinking of him he appeared?If only I'd known I was dreaming, I'd never have wakened

Guest's picture

Guest

Sunday, April 1, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Great program. One little

Great program. One little correction: I believe what Ogden Nash wrote was
Candy is dandy
But liquor is quicker

Guest's picture

Guest

Tuesday, April 3, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Wakened

Wakened
I was wakened by a radiance of light,
从我闪光。
=

Guest's picture

Guest

Tuesday, April 3, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

One latter-day creation from

One latter-day creation from a small collection of what I call New-Age Nursery Rhymes:
Humpitty Dumpitty sat on a wall,
Flopped by a pigeon, he had a great fall;
All broken and scattered---no money back terms,
He's a breakfast entree now,
An omelet. For worms.
I have similarly ravaged subjects, including Jack Horner; Old King Cole, et. al.
Is poetry a 'way of knowing'? Certainly, it must be. It helps us Think About Life*---to muse upon how things might be vs. how they are. It takes us into altruistic territory, while every other aspect of living fairly screams: look out for yourself and your own, because no one else WILL. We know, too well, how the world works. Poetry (sometimes) allows us to dream about how it might work better.
(* the name of a band of optimists)
Warmest,
Dr. S.

Guest's picture

Guest

Thursday, April 5, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Fantastic program! Just

Fantastic program! Just wanted to let you know that I really enjoy your show but this one was especially thought-provoking and inspiring.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Thursday, April 5, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

To Lee, regarding Ogden:

To Lee, regarding Ogden:
Quite so. Perhaps others will recall. If not, they do not matter so much, do they?
My best to the Wife and Kids,
HGN

mirugai's picture

mirugai

Saturday, April 7, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

优秀的评论,所有。

优秀的评论,所有。关于诗歌用法的迷人帖子。我在哪里可以找到这些一战士兵的诗歌?
REPRESENTATIONS
Philosophers arise! Cast off the chains of science! ?They? would transform the prescriptive belief system into not just certainty about now, but into determinism about all that is to come. The real duality is ?matter/consciousness?; there is no overlap: science is about matter; philosophy is about consciousness. Do not let anyone who uses science as their justification tell you anything about your work as a philosopher, or dissuade you from conclusions about thoughts.
Almost thirty years ago, some scholar/geniuses at Berkeley founded a journal called Representations, to give voice to new critical methods, among them Historicism. As a neo-philosopher, I worshipped at the feet of these guys, so their journal was the access to their new methodologies. But I was embarrassed to ask anyone on the staff why the journal was named ?Representations,? and what was the meaning, in the sense they used it, of the term. I was frightened that everyone knew, except me, and I would appear to be an even greater fool than I really was. (I remember the feeling, when I emerged naked from the dressing room of the YMCA pool, on Bathing Suit Friday.)
Reality. By which I mean reality which is normal ? which is ?understood by everyone.? Representations of reality. A person thinks something is worth communicating to another person. All kinds of demonstrations and illustrations and symbolic communications are available. What choices to make, and why? What are the relative powers of the choices to convince, and why? How do unintended or accidental or misintended representations reveal even more?
Because it is about rational thinking about thought, philosophy depicts a rational conscious reality (yes, conflicted and contradictory reality ? that?s no problem ? that?s the fun of it, in fact). But poetry, because it is metaphorical, adds to, and more closely approaches a representation of consciousness-reality. Philosophers should be enamored of the poet. I love reading and discussing poetry, and finding out what and how the poet ?represents.? I have tried writing poetry ? complete failure; probably because I hold poetic skills in such high regard it is crippling; more likely I am just plain no good at it, like I?m just no good at basketball.
But, thirty years later, I think I know what ?Representations? means.

Guest's picture

Guest

Monday, April 9, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

1. I was listening to the

1. I was listening to the roving philosophical reporter Catlin Esk and Shakespeare's choice of wording in King Lear. Willie used "madded" to describe Lear's descent into situational insanity. Madded is archaic, but back in the day it was just descriptive. (The use of "charcoaled" would be far more metaphoric -- the old ashes to ashes theme). Now, we would use the word "maddened", which wasn't invented until the 1700s.
Although "madded" was an unchallenging description for Willie to draw, these day its archaicness creates an intellectually challenging metaphor where none originally existed. So while the facts may be wrong, Catlin point still holds.
2.
We taste bitter.
But when we feel bitter
the same neural pathways light up.
Our minds' connections are
doing what poets do.
这个比喻死了吗?

Guest's picture

Guest

Wednesday, April 11, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

Thanks for the query, mirugal

谢谢你的询问,mirugal。我希望您能发现一些有用的评论,而不是向您推荐一本特定的选集。
Examples of the 'heroic' poems might include 'The Soldier,' written by Rupert Brooke (1887-1915) and 'In Flanders Fields,' written in 1915 by John McCrae (1872-1918). The latter poem seems to mark the end of the heroic era. Neither Brooke nor McCrae was a front-line soldier, Brooke was a sailor and McCrae was a medical doctor.
《在佛兰德斯战场》在前线遭遇了相当大的恐慌。特别是盟军在索姆河战役中惨败之后,人们对战争的态度发生了变化。威尔弗雷德·欧文(Wilfred Owen, 1893-1918)的一首诗《文雅》(Dulce et Decorum Est)被认为是对麦克雷诗歌的驳斥(也是对盟军最高指挥官道格拉斯·黑格爵士(Sir Douglas Haig)关于盟军伤亡的特别不敏感言论的回应)。欧文的诗作《注定的青春之歌》更广为人知。和欧文一样,大多数出版的作者都是军官。南非人艾萨克·罗森博格(Isaac Rosenberg, 1890-1918)是个例外,他以《战壕里的破晓》(Break of Day in the trench)闻名。其他几位著名的前线士兵诗人在战争中丧生;幸存下来的诗人是齐格弗里德·萨松(1886 ~ 1967年),他给政府写了一封公开信,表达了继续战争是徒劳的观点,差点被枪决。

Guest's picture

Guest

Friday, April 27, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

CORRECTION: For anyone who

CORRECTION: For anyone who may be interested, the website referenced in an earlier comment was misstated. It should read:www.larryvanpelt.ca(不是:.com)向所有人道歉,包括诗人。
Sardonicus.

Guest's picture

Guest

Tuesday, May 29, 2012 -- 5:00 PM

'twas brillig, and the slithy

'twas brillig, and the slithy toves did gyre and gimble in the wabe---'kind of says it all, doesn't it? Of course, we are not certain what is being said, because the poet is speaking in his own special tongue and we must IMAGINE what it is he is talking about---later, we must decipher 'mome wraths'. And, once again, we are unsure of what a wrath is, let alone a 'mome' one. And so, when poetry is a way of knowing, it may only be a way of knowing for the poet. I was amused by Humpitty Dumpitty. Not deep---but, a funny take on the original. And a different way of knowing the broken egg parable. Sardonicus has a wry wit. Yes.