Sex, Prostitution, and Well-lived Lives

16 May 2005

First, I want to thank Debra Satz for being our guest on the show yesterday. It was interesting and fun. I hope it was also enlightening. The discussion certainly provoked lots of calls, e-mails, and even comments on the blog. Even in philosophy, sex sells, I guess.

在过去几周的时间里,我一直在讨论这个话题,但我仍然对自己的最终观点感到不安。我非常确信——我认为——将卖淫定罪——无论是从供给端还是从需求端——都是行不通的。我倾向于那些认为犯罪化可能会使已经很糟糕的情况变得更糟的人。此外,某些“配置”卖淫的方式显然比其他方式更有问题——对妓女本身和整个社会都是如此。这使得设想法律框架变得相对容易,法律框架禁止或阻止某些形式的卖淫,但允许或鼓励其他不那么贬低和破坏性的形式。不过,我不认为这个问题是一成不变的。我认为,即使是最低贱的卖淫,也总会有需求。总会有人陷入困境,别无选择,只能孤注一掷地讨价还价。因此,如果破坏性和剥削性较低的卖淫品种合法化,并不能保证更具破坏性、贬低性和剥削性的卖淫形式就会消失,甚至严重减少。

But my focus in this post is not on the admittedly difficult collection of social and political questions connected to the legalization of prostitution. I want rather to explore a little bit further an idea I was trying out on the air. I said, as I recall, that because of the kind of relation that our own sexuality has to our identity and agency in the world, it seemed to me that sex is the wrong kind of thing to distribute via the market. Neither Debra nor John accepted the proto-argument I gave on the air. So let me try to do it again, a little more slowly. I’ll say up front that I’m not yet fully convinced that I’ve got the right way of thinking about it.

John called the approach I was defending moralistic -- or perhaps “prudish” was his word. But that’s not right. It’s not because I condemn or fear sex and sexuality, but because I celebrate them and believe that they are crucial ingredients of many versions of a well-lived life that I have qualms about prostitution. We are deeply erotic beings. Our erotic nature is not just a source great pleasure, but is tied up with our very identities as beings in the world. The erotic partly defines the boundaries of the self. One who violates another sexually has violated not just the body but the very self. The erotic connects us to others in intimate, joyous union. In the deepest most exhilarating erotic encounters, one regards one’s partner not just as an object or instrument of one’s own pleasure or satisfaction, not just as one’s sexual tool. Rather, each takes the other as another self – as another self for his or her self. One takes the pleasures of one’s lover as further sources of pleasures for oneself. One delights not only in the giving and receiving of pleasure, but also in the recognition and respect offered up by the lover. Erotic encounters can be theaters in which our autonomy and self-valuing are recognized, respected, and taken bodily and emotional delight in by another self-valuing, autonomous being who we in turn recognize, respect and take bodily and emotional delight in.

我并不是说所有甚至大多数的情爱邂逅都能或应该有如此深刻的共鸣。相互满足的性爱体验有很多种。毫无疑问,一个过得好的生活可能包含一些相当多的变化。事实上,美好的生活甚至可能完全没有情爱体验。所以我并不是说一个人的情爱体验必须采取某种特定的形式,或者在他的生活中占据某种特定的位置,如果一个人的生活算过得很好。尽管如此,我还是忍不住说这种深刻共鸣的情爱体验暗示了一些关于真正的"终极目标"的东西,就像亚里士多德所说的,情爱的终极目标。我承认,对于最后这一说法,我没有一个确凿的论据。这就是为什么我对这个结论只是“动心”,而不是完全赞同。我甚至不确定对于情爱的终极目标是否有一个可以推翻的论点。

But suppose we bracket such qualms for the sake of the present argument.Ifthe erotic has a telos andifthat telos is as I have described, then it’s possible evaluate erotic experiences, and their potential contributions to a well-lived life, by considering the degree to which they depart from said telos.

很明显,许多,但也许不是所有,妓女和约翰之间的相遇将远离那个目的。在卖淫的情爱遭遇中,嫖客本身更完全地是一种性中介。但他的性能力也下降了。他只是一个自私的性媒介,把另一个人当作纯粹的性工具。这并不意味着残忍或暴力。但它确实暗示了缺乏相互认可,重视和享受对方的快乐,这是最高级别的情爱邂逅的标志。当我说嫖客在更大程度上仍然是一个性中介时,我并不是要否认妓女的所有中介作用。她把她(或他)的身体和身体技能提供给嫖客。她(他)甚至可能在使用她(他)把她(他)的身体和她(他)展示在部署这些技能的卓越中获得某种快乐。此外,她(他)做这一切在某种意义上是自愿的,并期望她(他)的努力得到“公平”的补偿。

我们可以说,即使在卖淫的情爱中,妓女仍然是一种经济代理人,即使她不完全是一种性代理人。在这方面,有人会说,她与那些以既不反映她对自己的价值,也不要求别人承认她对自己的价值的方式向别人提供她的大脑或肌肉的人没有什么不同。

There is something to this line of thinking. But less, I think, than at first meets the eye. First, if we distinguish economic agency from sexual agency, we now have two dimensions along which to evaluate prostituted erotic encounters. One might think that prostituted erotic encounters in which the prostitute is able to preserve her(his) full economic agency, even at some cost to her(his) sexual agency, are morally preferable to prostituted erotic encounters in which the prostitute must surrender both some degree of sexual agency and some degree of economic agency. There is, I think, something deeply right about this thought. And I think any scheme for legalizing prostitution should have as one of its aims to make it more possible for prostitutes to function as full economic agents. Any such scheme should protect them against economic exploitation and seek to fully integrate them into ordinary economic life. That some such scheme is possible and morally preferable to any scheme that denies the full economic agency of the prostitute is the grain of truth behind the observation that prostitution need not be – though it often is -- different from any other economic transaction.

但我认为,这种观点忽略了一个事实,即一个人的性行为不是那种损失可以通过经济行为的收益来补偿的东西。的确,在某种程度上,这两个代理领域是不可比较的。我想,这就是出卖作品和出卖肉体的区别。推销自己的言辞并不会削弱自己的“权威性”。事实上,这样的交易在很多方面对一个作家的成功都有帮助。有些人会抓住这句话,并坚持认为,以同样的方式,出卖自己的性技能对一个人作为性代理的繁荣有帮助。毕竟,在生活的各个方面,熟能生巧。但是,从某种意义上说,这是正确的,却没有抓住重点。在妓女的情爱邂逅中,至少在相关邂逅的空间中,妓女被异化了,与她完整的性代理关系疏远了。在某种程度上,嫖客也是如此。 But the john is alienated in a different direction. My worry is that such alienation cannot easily be limited and contained. There are many reasons why this might be so. One has to do with the fact that the largely male driven demand for alienated sexual agency is backed by great economic and political power. And that demand plays, I think, some role – but not an exclusive role -- in the social configuration of the sexual agency of all men and all women, even those not directly involved in prostituted erotic encounters. Marxists claim that all capitalist economic arrangements have such effects. I do not think this is true globally. But because the erotic remains at its core a distinctive sphere of agency, with a distinctive place in well-lived human lives, something akin to the Marxist global critique of capitalism does apply locally to sexual agency and prostitution.

Or so it seems to me. At any rate that is thought behind my on-air remarks that sexuality is the wrong kind of thing to be properly distributed by the market. I don't think that makes me a prude. And I don't think it means that I've over-romanticized sex.

Comments(16)


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Tuesday, May 17, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

卖一个吗?S的话不贬低一个人吗?s

卖一个吗?S的话不贬低一个人吗?年代作者机构。?事实上,这样的交易可以在许多方面对一个?作为一个作家,他很成功。
I'd like to bring in the case of rank-and-file journalism, to argue that perhaps prostitution is not as special a case as it might seem, or rather that "sexual agency" is not especially vulnerable in a way that "authorial agency" or, say "crafting agency" or whatever agency you give up in doing your job.
就思想市场而言,教授的职位是相当有特权的,就像一个成功的小说家或受人尊敬的记者的职位一样。他们可能不会觉得为了金钱而出售他们的知识产品是放弃了他们的“作者代理”。另一方面,一个低级别记者被她的编辑和她的新闻机构的大环境强迫以某种方式报道某些问题,她可能会觉得她牺牲了大量的“作者机构”来换取(某种程度上)稳定的收入。问题在于一个人对如何销售自己的作品的控制程度,以及在自我驱动的工作方面要妥协多少。
卖淫业同样也有各种各样的风格和地位——也许不像其他职业那样广泛,但人们不得不问,这是卖淫业固有的东西还是它被定为犯罪的结果。妓女可以或多或少地自由选择自己的工作时间、会见哪些嫖客、从事何种性行为、何时终止性接触等等。人们不得不怀疑,坚持认为妓女的工作特别让人疏远,我们实际上并没有因为强加了一种关于卖淫可能是什么的有限视野而加重伤害。例如,一个排名较低的记者,可以把自己看作是朝着有一天对她的文章有更多的编辑控制而努力——告诉她所有的媒体工作在本质上是疏远的,实际上是否认她的工作感,而不是“勉强度日”。

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Wednesday, May 18, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

肯,你提出了一些有趣的观点。Yet

肯,你提出了一些有趣的观点。然而,即使我接受你的前提(即,性是有目的的,性代理与经济代理是不可通约的),也不能得出这样的结论:妓女不能在她们的工作之外拥有那种使她们过上“美好生活”的性。你需要在你的论点中加入一些东西——在某种程度上,妓女每天在工作中从事商业化的性行为,这一事实腐蚀了她在工作场所之外实现非商业化性行为的能力。这个想法是有道理的——Arlie Hochschild在她的书《被管理的心脏》(the Managed Heart)中记录了空姐商业化情绪的普遍影响——但它似乎确实言过其实了。在广告公司做技术下属的人——画空洞的设计或写令人作呕的广告歌——在工作之外可能仍然是一个伟大的艺术家或诗人。
It also seems to me, ideally, that a well lived life has many dimensions --and we cannot maximize on all of them. So people need to make trade offs.
The biggest problems I see with prostitution is that we do not live in an ideal world --globally speaking, most people have far less than adequate choices, and women fewer still. Most women in prostitution (globally) are there as a last resort, and are subject to violence and economic exploitation as well as disease. Even in the developed countries, women have far less economic opportunity than men. So, lots of prostitution (but not all) is compounded by poverty, unequal power, exploitation and violence. And lots of prostitution (perhaps all) is permeated by gender --by norms of inequality based on sex, in which women are there to serve men's needs, and women's sexuality is controled by men. That's why I think its troubling; but I could imagine circumstances where it would not be so. (Unfortunately, my imagination here runs far ahead of anything that looks remotely possible....)

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Wednesday, May 18, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

Debra: Three points: First, even if one co

Debra:
Three points:
First, even if one could manage to "bifurcate" one's sexual agency that would still leave one's overall sexual agency diminished. It's not as though only the good times count toward determining the character of one's sexual life or contribute to determining how well one has lived. At best, the prostitute would be a fragmented sexual agent. It's an interesting question whether the fragments could be smoothly integrated into a reasonably coherent life, or whether, failing that, each could remain within its own sphere. That's probably very much a person-by-person thing. Certainly, I would guess that neither integration nor Clintonian compartmentalization would be an entirely psychologically easy thing to pull off. Of course, it may also be that a sexually fragmanted life isn't such a bad one and a sexually coherent life isn't such a good one. I suppose it is true that if one wants to live an integrated and coherent life, then subjecting oneself to the risk of fragmentation is probably unwise. On the other hand, if one can compartmentalize, then the benefits of fragmentation may be considerable.
Second, I suggested but didn't elaborate much that the diminishing of sexual agency (relative to the telos of sexuality) that arguably happens in prostituted erotic encounters applies both to the prostitute and to the john, but they are diminished in different ways. The john does not give recognition and respect. The prostitute does not receive it. But this is mostly important as a prelude to the third point.
The third point is that my worry is not meant just to be about each individual's sexuality and how he/she copes with diminished and/or fragmented sexual agency. The worry is also about how the instution of prostitution contributes to the configuration of the sexual agency of all -- even those who are not directly involved in prostituted erotic encounters. I worry that the array of forces driving us to institute a sphere of diminished sexual agency -- the political and economic power that backs intense demand by males for sex from diminished sexual agents and the economic desperation that drives mostly women to satisfy that demand-- helps to configure and constrain the sexuality of all in ways that undercut the (assumed) telos of sexuality.
What I mean by this is that by jointly endorsing and constituting a prostituted sexual sphere through politics, the law, and the instruments of civil society, we in effect offer this space up to any sexual agent as an arena in which some aspects of her/his sexual agency may legitimately be enacted. The offer may parade as the offer of increased economic opportunity for some -- the would be prostitute -- and of increased sexual freedom for others -- the would be john. By my lights, though, that offer is partly a sham. Yet unless we jointly recognize and represent the offer as a sham, our own sexual self-representations now includes as one possiblity among others this kind of debased arena, but without recognizing it as debased.
This, again, isn't an argument against legalizing prostitution. But it is an argument that prostituted sexuality ought to remain as it were the marked case rather than the unmarked case.
Hope that helps.

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Thursday, May 19, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

I must admit that towards the beginning of the pro

我必须承认,在节目开始时,我认为解决卖淫问题最好的办法是把性想象成打电话的人把卖淫比作卖按摩:亲密的身体接触,而性只是一种更亲密的身体接触。但随着讨论的进行,我发现自己开始转向Ken?他关于性的目的的观点,特别是在他观察到强奸罪(无论是男人还是女人)在程度和性质上都不同于任何其他涉及某种身体攻击的犯罪之后(如果我没有完全正确地使用目的一词,请原谅我;我只有一门哲学课得了B)。而且,我仔细想了想,我妻子对偶尔的度假水疗按摩没有问题,但我相当确信她会对偶尔的度假水疗妓女持非常悲观的看法。
但是,虽然我同意肯?关于性的最终目的,我认为同样重要的讨论肯?S点认为,性接触的类型有很多种。这一范围的一端可能包括肯指出的那种深刻的共鸣。然而,另一个极端似乎存在着自愿的成年人之间的匿名接触,他们之间没有金钱交易(例如,在同性恋社区的浴室、性俱乐部或换妻者?)在异性恋群体的聚会上)。我猜是从肯?他同意这种遭遇在道德上是没有问题的,尽管它们偏离了任何形式的目的?这种体验仅仅是性的一部分。那么,我就看不出,作为这种性行为动机的一方与另一方(或者我认为是其他人)之间的金钱交换,是如何将这种交换转化为道德上有问题的交换的。再一次,我呢?m ignoring all of the other problems (coercion, physical abuse, etc.) and trying to focus on the question of whether the exchange of money for sex strikes me as morally problematic.
也许在卖淫的讨论中,对性目的的关注掩盖了定义卖淫的实际交易。我认为我同意市场力量不能恰当地分配深刻共鸣的体验,我认为根据定义,市场力量不能(因为你不能花钱让别人对你有这种感觉)。然而,撇开这种体验不谈,我不确定我是否看到了花钱进行这种类型的性爱的道德问题,因为这种性爱可能更接近于缺乏深刻共鸣的按摩。此外,我对自己评估伤害的能力还不够有信心,如果对卖淫者的精神(或者像肯恩所说的,对性机构)有任何伤害的话,这些妓女从事卖淫并以此来换取金钱,让?我们称它们为次要类型的性接触,因此我倾向于把这种计算留给妓女的自我评估。(哎呀,我的自由意志主义倾向显现出来了吗?)在妓女完全知情的情况下,我倾向于让妓女来做决定,不管我觉得这是多么的堕落、破坏性或剥削,因为一个人?S退化是另一个?搔痒。(重复一遍:我在此讨论的重点是完全知情的、双方同意的金钱收益;我和Ken一样承认,在现实生活中,围绕着这种类型的交换存在许多困难,我在这里不打算处理这些问题。是的,它吗?it’我很懦弱,但这是一个博客,我不。i don’我不是以此为生的。
在这一点上,我认为,有些人陷入困境,别无选择,只能绝望地讨价还价,这种说法恰恰相反。如果一个人陷入了如此可怕的困境,他们愿意做一笔绝望的交易,那么我需要完全相信我的立场是正义的,然后才会基于我的道德计算剥夺他们的选择(并可能让他们进行更绝望的交易)。在这里,我要感谢的是,我没有陷入这样一种境地,我没有决定与陌生人发生性关系来解决我可能遇到的任何经济问题,但我不相信这样做在道德上是如此错误,我会拒绝这种选择(或将其定为犯罪)其他人。
Apologies. I realized just as I was about to post this that the discussion has taken off from Ken?s initial post, and that its direction has evolved. I wrote this off line and did not see the subsequent interesting exchange between Ken and Debra. Again, as I do not do this for a living, I add this post for whatever it?s worth, and apologize that it does not build on the prior posts. I will have read those posts in more detail over the weekend.

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Guest

Sunday, May 22, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

我是和你的罗文交谈过的性工作者之一

我是与你的巡回记者交谈过的性工作者之一,我已经在我的博客上发布了一些关于这件事的消息。这是一个石器时代的博客,我必须警告你…没有ping、铃铛或哨子。
http://www.tracyquan.net/gossip/blog.php3
谢谢你邀请我上节目。我很喜欢,很高兴听到巴西人的呼唤。谈到妓女组织,巴西是一个走在前列的国家。印度也是如此。泰国的妓女运动也非常活跃,数量众多。美国被认为是最落后的激进主义。与其他国家的活动家相比,我们的人数更少,与政府的互动也更少。

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Guest

Monday, May 23, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

I very much enjoyed Melissa's blog and recommend i

I very much enjoyed Melissa's blog and recommend it to others. I'd like to reply to some of the comments on this blog.
为生活而工作给人以尊严,能够在这个世界上走自己的路——即使你的经营水平不是最高的——也是相当令人满意的。我知道这一点,因为我并不总是在最好的环境下工作,有时在我成功后,我对我更好的客户隐瞒我的开始。但我并不害怕我卑微的出身,我只知道我需要维护自己的形象。就像一个光鲜亮丽的杂志作家却没有提到她曾经为一家超市小报写过文章。
Also, it is not true that prostitution is always about faking. The work can be physically pleasurable -- some prostitutes have orgasms at work. Of course, a prostitute also knows how to fake it, but sex is complicated and unpredictable. Prostitutes can love their clients and vice versa, though it is not the norm for everybody to fall in love! But there is often warmth/attachment between buyer and seller and when our clients die, we have been known to shed a few tears. You do get attached to your repeat clients who, over a decade or more, have watched you grow and blossom and change apartments and acquire different boyfriends or hobbies.
We are just people. Ditto the clients. The idea that NO love or pleasure or affection can occur is as absurd as the idea that it must always.
It's puzzling that someone would say, as the host did "Would you want your wife or sister to do this? Your daughter?" Women in the sex industry are wives, daughters, sisters. Most of us have families. Whether some husband, father or brother approves of us or not, we do it. We are everywhere! We are in families and classrooms and grocery stores. I think the more important question would be "How do you come to terms with your wife, daughter or sister being a separate person with desires, intentions, ambitions, plans and perhaps even a few personal contacts that you didn't know about?"
Can you get past the idea that we are some sort of icky scary "other" that should never touch your personal life? That is really the only way to learn something valuable about prostitution.

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Guest

Tuesday, May 24, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

I am a retired Dominatrix from the UK. Having spen

I am a retired Dominatrix from the UK. Having spent 30yrs in the `profession`& experienced most things that one would say is or could be seen as negative `at times`! Insomuch have had a client who tried to kill me in the 70`s. He unfortunately for him died at my hands whilst I defended myself.
所以我经历了法律和社会的社会污名和判断,并克服了它!
我不认为自己是一个受害者,从来没有这样想过。为了“看到”和体验那个视角,我也曾经“脱离”过这个职业。
During my `out` time, I set up a support agency in Plymouth, UK, specifically for all sex-workers, with Government quango funding partnerships.
It was during that time that I came to the conclusion that it is NOT the sex-workers that need to change or be eradicated, but the stigms & taboo`s surrounding the attitudes towards sex-workers.
To guess & submise that sex-workers are victims of either a personal/sexual/political/financial impositions, does not solve, not deal with the issues at hand. These type of stances serve to further diminish & not only that reinforce the attitude of society against another culture!
因此,“增加”对性工作者的禁忌政策是毁灭性的,有时是致命的。
当性工作者受到重视而不是受到谴责时,“个人”的强加可能会有很大的改变。
The `sexual` impositions would be changed if new sex-workers were offered support & advice by other experienced sex-workers.
The `political` impositions could be altered if acceptance for others values were honoured.
The `finiacial` impositions would be shared within the communities. Giving sex-workers the status back of citizenship. Something that has been denied them, even at an international level. Denying them their human-rights, either in the countries court of law or the international rights courts.
不,我不像在这里写文章的一些性工作者那样受教育,尽管如此,我有自己的声音。
To have that `voice` hushed or diminished due to others thinking that I don`t have control of my truth, or my insights, I find oppressive & demeaning.
我们花了这么多时间关注那些被认为是受害者的人,而不是庆祝这个行业的优势和成功,就像在看到少数医生不尊重他们的专业地位后说所有的医生都是狡猾的。
It is the percieved victims that we focus on, because we `look` for fear. Fear being a multi-million dollar industry which is incorporated & absorbed into our everyday lives.
Some sex-workers like myself have a spiritual aspect to there being & could possibly offer a `close encounter` observation of clients. Maybe giving new insights to ourselves as sexual beings on this planet.
专业性工作者的支配极少意味着通常意义上的性交。而是专注于“心灵中的情色”。
This type of prostitution is getting more popular, do you think this is by chance?
More & more people are indulging in fetish-driven erotica & sex, is this a coincidence?
To surpress sexual expression is unhealthy for society.
女人天生喜欢男人有价值和慷慨的一面。即使在婚姻中,婚姻的力量也取决于所提供的东西。
性不只是某些人所认为的情人的领域……它将被所有人享受和分享。
What right has anyone to say that just a bonded pair can enjoy the true meaning a caring sexual encounter?
Presumptions are made based on the experience or judgement of one against another, not a healthy aspect in anybodies terms.
所以我反而觉得,是的,性工作者是可敬的,对人类有价值的贡献者,他们应该得到应有的认可和尊重。

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Wednesday, May 25, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

To Tracy, Melissa, and Lynne: I'm glad to hav

To Tracy, Melissa, and Lynne:
I'm glad to have some folks with real-world experience commenting on this thread. I'm not sure though whether we're talking to one another or talking past one another.
To Tracy, for example, I'd say that I don't think that John or Debra thinks of prostitutes as some "icky, scary" others. I know that I don't.
仅就我个人而言,我认为妓女是真实的人,她们往往发现自己需要在至少某种程度上绝望的情况下达成交易。
事实是,我不倾向于把买卖性行为仅仅看作是其他经济交易中同样理性的一种。我也不认为卖淫只是其中一种同样令人满意和有效的性行为。但这并不能直接说明我是如何看待妓女的。我对卖淫是否应该合法化,以及如果应该合法化,以何种形式对妓女提供何种保护等问题的态度,也没有得出任何结论。
To Lynne, I accept your view of yourself as not any kind of victim. That's really for you to say not me. But I do suspect that many women are victimized by prostitution world-wide, especially by the way that prostitution is economically and socially configured here and throughout the world. But that's not at all inconsistent with saying that the economic and social configuration of prostitution should be changed in lots of ways. In fact, it entails that if prostitution is to be legal, it needs to be structured in ways that doesn't make a bad situation worse, that integrates prostitutes and prostitution into the above ground economy, etc.
I propose a thought experiment. Imagine a world in which economic and political inequality between men and women is largely eliminated. I know it's hard to imagine in detail the shape of such a world, but let your imagination run wild. Also imgagine that in this world it's not just that men and women are equally bad off but that everybody is pretty well off, that few live in desperate poverty, that few are denied decent educations, that economies do not produce savage inequalities and divisions between haves and have nots, that exploitative labor practices have largely been eradicated, etc. etc.
Now I may be wrong, but I suppose that even in such a world, the largely male driven demand for the services of prostitutes would not ipso facto be significantly decreased -- male sexuality being more or less what it is. What I do doubt, though, is that the supply of women and men willing to satisfy those demands would remain constant. I don't think the supply would disappear, but I do suspect it would be severely diminished.
也许我错了。毕竟,这是一个实证问题。不幸的是,我们离收集相关数据还有很长的路要走,因为我们离我想象的世界还有很长的路要走。但如果这是正确的,那么,在我们实际生活的这个混乱、不公正、分裂的世界里,一定有相当一部分人被迫卖淫,不是因为他们发现这是一种让人非常满意的另类性行为(这碰巧也能带来经济上的回报),而是纯粹的经济需要和替代选择的缺乏。
Finally, to Melissa, who writes on her own blog the following:
“似乎我们对性的所谓“自然”状态的信仰的力量,实际上阻止了情色资本的幽灵——当谈到工作生活的这一方面时,我们仍然用古老的偏见欺骗自己,认为世界上最古老的职业是某种巨大的未知事故,没有历史,没有目的,没有目标,没有理由?”
I like the phrase "erotic capital." But in this post I wasn't trying to keep the idea of erotic capital at bay in the sense you seem to imply. Rather, I was exploring the idea of whether the erotic could legitmately function as capital and/or commodity. I was arguing that turning the erotic into mere capital, or, better, into a mere commodity, to be bought and sold like any other is to debase the erotic.
很多人认为将情色商品化并没有本质上的错误。我的意思是,情色显然被大量且广泛地商品化了。性买卖,也被买卖。我的问题是什么应该资本化和商品化是否有任何限制。
Capitalism in its most unrestrained forms is a totalizing system and would sweep everything into the market. But I reject that kind of capitalism -- not becuase I have an ahistorical view of things or privilege the natural over something else. It's rather that I think that some things are so intimately tied up with our very beings, our very identity that to commodify them is to commodify the self.
Of course, the boundaries between what ought and ought not to be commodified is a hard one to draw and it may not be an all or nothing thing. In almost everything we do for pay, we give away a little bit of ourselves, as several comments on this thread have pointed out, and we try to hold onto something that is not a mere commodity. But I think protecting the core of oneself from full commodification once one has allowed a little encroachment, as it were, is much easier said than done.

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Thursday, May 26, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

I say again, excuse me if I have not got this quit

I say again, excuse me if I have not got this quite right. I am not au-fait with politics, nor certin types of terminology.
Nonetheless here goes:
The Nirvana type ideal world you asked to envisage has got to be the `ideal` that most of us could or would happen as an inheritance of our collective experiences.
personally I think you are right that elements & participants of the sex industry would be reduced in such a world, perhaps for a while; because for a number of reasons think this would be temporary.
是的,许多活跃的妓女因为他们的经济状况更好,会停止在职业选择上看这个方向!
Though this would not take into account those who maybe started their sex industry career for financial gain, but found along the path that there was other elements to prostitution, previously missed or not understood i.e:
心理的见解。
Spiritual insights.
情爱的见解。
还有那些妓女从一开始就知道这一点!
The constancey of demand on/for prostitutes are forever ebbing & flowing, meandering & adapting to the rhythmn of the needs of societies & concepts within.
把色情的商品化看作是一种堕落,可能会错过给予和接受的意义!
What do we see as valuable?
When we work & are paid for that work we feel valued or achnowledged (whatever the job)!
When we look to work for no pay, we still look for some kind of gratifacation or `sense of value`. Value in our offeringstoo.
Our sense of existence & survival I feel is measured by what we bring to the table either, financially, emotionally, spiritually or intellectually.
What we `give away` in any of those four needs is rewarded many-fold by our sense of `being` & being part of a flowing structive of society
卖淫的非刑事化形式是另一回事。
A difficult one to imagine & to implement considering the attitudes, taboo`s & stigma`s that plague humanity, especially in its views of sex & sexuality.
Which in turn reflects the way those `outside` the sex industry see those within it.
before we can even consider this quandary I feel we must firstly look at what & why societies are thus affected. We must be honest about he way we see oursleves as sexual beings, the way our cultural/historical backgrounds have affected our views. We must try to begin to stop being so afraid!
相反,把它看作是我们自己的一个精神空间,它与我们的物理存在相联系。
Taking the fear & the victim out of those who little understand their own fears & others.
Educating children (next generations) in sex & relationships beyond what we have done so far.
在教育他们自己和他人的过程中,他们扮演着“认识自己”的角色。
Instead of being teddy-bears for their parents or family, which in turn affects the way they relate & their expectations of others.
The politics of gender need to be resolved, taking away much of the fear based concepts of each other.
唯一使我们彼此(在性方面)不同的是一种基因化学反应,它决定了在子宫内怀孕6周后,谁是谁!
Prior to that we are but one!
因此,影响我们的是我们的感觉,而不是我们本身。
Maybe then sowing the seeds of understanding is the future for the percieved freedom for not just prostitutes, but all affected by finiancial, emotional, spiritual, intellectual insecurities.

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Tuesday, May 31, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

有趣的文章;while not a sex worke

有趣的文章;虽然我不是性工作者,但这是我仔细考虑过的。在我看来,你(Ken)的论点完全是围绕着当前对卖淫和当前社会的看法。你讨论了通过经济压力不情愿地物化女性,并提供了一幅理想化的(不是错误的,只是理想化的)情爱关系图,以支持这样一种观点:这种物化(本质上是性的)在某种程度上不同于其他形式的不情愿物化。

I would suggest that this is based in societal bias. I think that separating the erotic being from the economic being is a societal bias and a convenience, not an obvious or even, necessarily, reasonable act. You suggest that we are deeply erotic creatures - which I will not contest! - but I would balk at any suggestion that such erotic nature exceeds in import our drive to eat, to seek shelter, to seek the affirmation and approval of our tribe, or to support and succor our children/family/tribal unit.

如果我可以提出一个类似的思想实验——让我们想象一个世界,在这个世界里,不得不为另一个人工作被认为是堕落的高度——“放弃自己的经济代理”,听凭雇主的一时冲动。让我们进一步想象,上述世界在很大程度上体现了美国社会的资本主义本质,并不是每个人都能默认获得经济独立。在这样一个社会中,“开明的人”可能会游说直接取缔“就业”,这难道不合理吗?那些被迫面对这种羞辱的人可能会不情愿地在他们的雇主/压迫者的控制下工作?最后,可能不会有少数员工意识到这种偏见纯粹是社会性质的,并心甘情愿地接受自己的地位,为自己拥有的经济决心感到高兴,不愿意接受“普通人”堆积在他们身上的明显的侮辱?他们可能会拒绝压迫社会的“外联”计划,拒绝他们所做的是羞辱的论点?

Let me further fancy that in this society in question, prostitution is not considered degrading, but considered to be a prime means of self-employment that one might be proud of. That delivering a quality product and experience is a paramount means of competition - where there might be, in fact, competition for 'johns'. With the weight of social disapproval gone from their shoulders, how many prostitutes would necessarily be 'humiliated'? How many might love their jobs - how many might just do it because it made a lot of money? Do you think it might be possible in this world that the prostitute's guild might not contribute money to outreach programs designed to help employed single mothers enter the much less stigmatized and better paying world of prostitution?

In closing, a couple of questions... How many people love the job they are doing now? Does the fact that many people hate their jobs and have been forced into them via economic pressure mean that employment is necessarily and habitually dehumanizing and degrading?

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Sunday, July 3, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

嘿,我只想说几句话。I am a 25 y

嘿,我只想说几句话。我是一个25岁的男人一个卖淫的产物。The fact is my 45
year old mother Betty Justus earnd her own way in nursing school by selling sex (oral, anal, intercourse, or other). When she was 20 thats when I came along. I do not see anything wrong with it. She raised me, had a
家,车,上了大学,靠卖淫养活自己。即使现在她是一名注册护士,仍然在卖淫和爱的每一秒。

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Friday, July 15, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

As an Indian Devadasi, I find this discourse rathe

作为一名印度神之女奴,我发现这种论述相当以欧洲为中心,而且有局限性。然而,通过我的生殖劳动获得报酬,我相信我能够对我的性行为进行控制,使我能够以一种透明和理性的方式组织我与男性的关系。
我并不认为某种神圣的性行为和世俗的性行为之间有什么区别,也就是说某种性行为比通过某种支付获得补偿的性行为更健康或更丰富生活。
As each man is an incarnation of my Deity I can enjoy each encounter as if I was with my "husband" or primary partner. Their payments to me represent an acknowledgement of my skills and value as a partner and I appreciate being able to command such tributes.
正如恩格斯所言,性伴侣之间的经济不平等表明了一个剥削性卖淫的国家,我认为西方人应该花更多的时间考虑婚姻和其他伙伴关系中的性剥削性质,而不是从性工作中介那里获得透明的性报酬。
I think the European dichotomy that would suggest that paid sex had a lesser intrinsic value than ?real? sex is a false dichotomy that is a cultural construction that needs unpacking and reexamination.
值得庆幸的是,作为一个神之女奴,我不觉得被这样一个错误的二分法束缚或束缚。

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Wednesday, July 20, 2005 -- 5:00 PM

Dear Sir I'm not a psychologist or anybody near t

Dear Sir
I'm not a psychologist or anybody near that field.
我的问题只是让我很困扰。我只是想知道妓女是否会爱上别人?
If someone has had sex with so many males in her life I tend to believe that for such a woman, having sex is just a routine business and nothing else. If any special attachment to a man maybe only for security reasons. Please take your time and give me your answer.
Thank you
Mailutha

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Tuesday, May 9, 2006 -- 5:00 PM

THE JOHN'S TALE My typical weekend begins promp

THE JOHN'S TALE
我的周末通常在周五下午5点就开始了。通常,我和我的已婚同事会步行几百码到火车站附近的一家酒吧,这家酒吧自称是一家“英国酒吧”。这意味着décor和家具状况不佳,啤酒是温暖的。以前有个菲律宾人在那里工作她会说英语,但她离开了。
实际上它吗?工作之余喝上一两杯也很方便。我一边喝酒,一边拿出一包欧式薄荷香烟,然后点了起来。我只在喝酒的时候抽烟?事实上,我试着把我所有的罪恶放在一起,希望它们在最后的审判中只算一种罪恶。我在很多方面都是个坏人。
我花了一个小时和我的同事们在一起,他们慢慢地对我至少要保留一点体面的要求感到越来越沮丧。下午6点前,我赶着6点01分的火车去市中心,从一名受人尊敬的员工到一名嫖客的转变接近完成。
On the train I break out my hip flask and take quiet nips of vodka. I begin to relax after the exacting trials and tribulation of the so recently expired week of work. At the main train station it is a quick transfer to the bus and a 10 minute ride to the heart of the red-light zone.
My first stop is a Thai style bar and my usual hostess Nan brings me a glass of dry white Chardonnay as I light up another cigarette. ?Drink for me?? Nan asks and I nod almost imperceptibly.
Nan?s a cute looking girl and she doesn?t look her 30 years. She is slim and dresses in a revealing short skirt and skimpy top. She has a small son and no husband but I?ve never been able to tempt her to meet me outside the bar worse luck.
After two more drinks I tip Nan unnecessarily and walk to the main drag of the strip. I have a drink in a few more bars and chat to some girls I know. Almost everyone knows me around here. At work a woman once mentioned that she?d read in the paper that there were 2000 prostitutes in this city. ?2000?? I said. ?I must know all of them...?. Even she thought that was funny.
酒吧里的自由职业者大多是非洲人、巴西人或古巴人,也有一些俄罗斯人和其他东欧人。泰国人主要在色情俱乐部和按摩院,我很少去这些地方,因为对我的口味来说,这些地方太受控制了(也太贵了)。
In one of the bars suddenly Claudia wanders in and immediately makes a bee-line for me. ?Hey Paul do you wanna buy me a drink?? she coos. ?OK,? I reply and she slides in next to me at the bar and begins stroking my thigh.
Claudia is 28, good-looking, African, English speaking, no kids. She has a number of piercings and I?ve been with her several times before. ?Do you wanna come with me short time or I?ll stay with you tonight if you like??. She flutters her eyelids mockingly. ?OK, short time,? I say.
We walk to her small one-room apartment and do the business. It costs me around £100 for an hour. (This is an expensive city.) I emerge from the apartment block into the rain and make my way to my favourite bar. This bar has a band every night and a quiet Thai restaurant/bar attached which is good for chatting once you have selected your potential mate for the night.
I wander through the bar and say hello to several girls and a few other whoremongers I recognise. I am looking for Nina but in the end it is Nina who finds me. In French she exclaims ?Paul, where have you been? I?ve been looking everywhere for you.? I smile, escort her to the small, quiet bar and buy a bottle of dry white wine for the two of us.
我的o级法语不是很好,但对我们的目的来说已经足够好了。保罗,我今晚想和你在一起。明天我得回巴黎。好吗? ?我点头。我喜欢尼娜。她吗?她也是28岁,非洲人,说法语,笑容灿烂,性格温和。她在非洲有一个孩子,做了剖腹产手术。
她吗?她不是游戏中最可爱的女孩,但她?她的屁股很漂亮。她也很友好,很有趣,我很信任她,让她来我家。我也相信克劳迪娅但今晚是妮娜吗?年代的夜晚。我们吃点东西,然后打车回我的公寓。
In the morning I drink a bottle of white wine while Nina does a pretty good job of cleaning my apartment. After lunch we retire to the bedroom for an hour. Later we shower together, dry ourselves and get dressed. I give her £400 and then walk her to the train station to buy her a train ticket back to the city.
?A la prochaine fois!? she says as she kisses me. ?Yes see you next time, honey,? I reply. She gets aboard the train and waves at me until she?s out of sight. I like Nina, she?s sweet. They are all sweet ? well nearly all.
I spend the rest of Saturday afternoon drinking wine and doing chores until I fall asleep sozzled and content. I have bust my weekend budget of £500 so next weekend I?ll have to cut back a bit. Yeah next weekend??.
星期天是我的休息日。不泡妞,不抽烟,不喝酒。只是严重的宿醉,大量的瓶装水和充足的睡眠。幸运的是我吗?明天早上我的身体就差不多可以上班了。
You might think that this lifestyle is a bit risky. I would say that my lifestyle and that of the girls around me is riskier than most but nowhere near as risky as most people would probably imagine.
你可能也认为不可能去爱一个妓女,但是?也不是真的。我爱(以我自己的方式)所有与我交往的女人。他们是不同的,大胆的,不寻常的,性感和诱惑。此外,他们还是一群令人惊讶的善良的人。
Prostitution isn?t well understood (or well regarded) in the UK. It?s generally thought of as a seedy, dirty world populated by drug addicts, pimps, pushers, traffickers, criminals and sad people (like me).
Now, no doubt all of these types of individuals exist in the sex industry here (& elsewhere) but this is largely due to the illegal nature of the trade and the lack, therefore, of any regulation except the prosecution of all and sundry (weather permitting).
I have a great deal of experience of prostitutes. I am 47 and over the last 15 years I have paid for sex with women in the UK, USA, Holland, Switzerland, the Philippines and Thailand.
I have had good (mostly) and bad experiences. I regard myself as a professional John. Being a professional John, however, doesn?t pay well. Sebastian Horsley says in his article ?The Brothel Creeper? (Why I?ve slept with 1000 women) that it cost him £100,000. I?ve spent a similar amount on only 500 women so he must either be cheap or a better negotiator.
Why do I go to prostitutes? Well, I don?t want a traditional girlfriend and I don?t want to do one night stands. Plus if I pay I get who I want (within reason) no strings attached.
Prostitution is not all sleaze, pimps and drugs. It is women?s business and it can be classy and expensive. The double-standard employed by government whereby it appears sex can be packaged and used to sell almost anything for a profit by anyone except women themselves for their own well-being.
整个社会应该停止伤害从事自然人类活动的妓女(和嫖客),并敦促将卖淫合法化。
-Paul Pisces (Author of "Desperately Seeking Sex & Sobriety")

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Tuesday, March 23, 2010 -- 5:00 PM

卖淫是一种没有受害者的犯罪。The victimless

卖淫是一种没有受害者的犯罪。无被害人犯罪是国家用来暴力向全体人民推行道德或社会议程的工具。所有没有受害者的犯罪都应该合法化,这样警察就可以开始把资源投入到真正有用的事情上。这是一件好事。