J.S. Mill and the Good Life

Sunday, May 15, 2022
First Aired:
Sunday, June 23, 2019

What Is It

John Stuart Mill was one of the most important British philosophers of the 19th century. As a liberal, he thought that individuals are generally the best judges of their own welfare. But Mill was also a utilitarian who thought that there were objectively lower and higher pleasures and that the good life was one which maximized higher pleasures. So is there a way to reconcile Mill’s liberal project with his utilitarianism? Is the good life for Mill one in which individuals determine their own paths? Or should those who know better still try to nudge others to live better lives? John and Ken fulfill their potential with David Brink from UC San Diego, author of密尔的进步的原则。

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Comments(22)


Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Thursday, June 6, 2019 -- 11:40 AM

I freely admit I have never

我承认我从没读过密尔的书。不管怎么说,没有。但是,如果他真的相信功利主义和自由主义,我们可能会问,他是否只是另一个哲学家,同时谈论两个游戏。也许他看不出有什么矛盾?或者,另一方面,也许这是他将哲学家与“庸俗”(一个常见的术语,在18和19世纪,哲学家们用它来区分自己和其他人)区分开来的方式。在我看来,哲学仍然相当“自我”。人们一直在努力让更多的观众能够接触到它,尽管这些努力并不一定令人信服。我们现在不能问他。即使我们能和米尔先生谈谈,我也不确定我们能得到一个直接的答案。不过,推测一下还是很有趣的。

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Harold G. Neuman

Friday, June 21, 2019 -- 11:50 AM

I have just received a copy

我刚从我那友好的图书馆里收到一本密尔的《三论》。期待阅读这部作品。有一篇文章是关于“宗教的效用”的。最近,我一直在为一篇关于魔法和宗教的文章概述谈话要点。故事的前提与魔法和宗教的起源有关。我认为其中包括:无知;害怕;不确定性;以及人类对存在的宿命(换句话说:死亡)的认识。没有别的生物体会想到这一点——初级意识既不提供也不需要这种痛苦。 My essay, I hope, will illustrate the mysterious nature and allure of magic, and the restorative, promissory nature of religion. At the root of both magic and religion we find superstition. This might be viewed as one of the origins mentioned above, but I see it as an effect. (I alluded to this project in another recent comment on a different post.) Don't yet know how Mill treated the 'utility' notion. I suspect he will have said some things about this, vis-a-vis, his support of utilitarianism. I will have to wait and see...stay tuned!

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Tim Smith

Tuesday, December 28, 2021 -- 12:18 PM

Can liberty and utilitarian

Can liberty and utilitarian strands of Mill's thought be reconciled?

It is hard to imagine ourselves as a collective organism when we think or philosophize; it seems a personal act. When politicians refer to America, they most often refer to their America. When we refer to our thought, we think of them as our own. However, much of my thought is derived from John Stuart Mill, and I didn't realize this affinity until I read it and found him speaking to my core beliefs.

But lately, my core beliefs have been questioned, and I wonder what Mill would think of our times and events. Pornography, money in politics, and information as a commodity would repulse Mill from his thesis On Liberty. I doubt he could have come to his ideas in our current reality.

David, Ken, and John give a fair accounting of the conflict in Mill's work.

Sexual freedom for one will always imply sexual repression for another. The legalization of drugs will cripple the lives of those prone to addiction. Refusing vaccinations will kill the unvaccinated and vaccinated alike.

以规则为基础的功利主义方式将我们的身份概念扩展到他人身上,包括我们身体内部和外部,这样我们的具体行动就可以服务于我们的利益,而不限制他人。我们的血液、个人信息和情感生活都与他人交织在一起。摆脱对自己身体、行为和情感的认同是解决米尔斯难题的一步。这条路既不容易走,也不真实,但最终,这是一条好路,是一种美好的生活。

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Harold G. Neuman

Tuesday, January 11, 2022 -- 6:12 AM

I had a brain fart this

I had a brain fart this morning, concerning the enigma of J.S. Mill. Is it reasonable to assume and/or believe well-to-do people read? I think so, although I have only one relative ( by marriage) who meets the criteria of well-to-do. He is the spouse of my wife's aunt. They raised children; travelled some and he retired from a successful career. I imagine he reads but do not know what. As with other self-made men and women, he is a private person. Here is where this is going: it occurs to me that wealthier people might enjoy reading Mill. They have access to 'the good life'. That there is contradiction in the foundations of his philosophy might not occur to them---whether they are utilitarian, liberal or indeterminate. Perhaps this is a clue to resolving the enigma. If Mill saw no contradiction, only attending circumstances, he would have had no qualms about the matter.

It has often been noticed that the well-off or wealthy don't talk about money. This sometimes annoys those who lack the luxury. But, as a practical matter, they should not trouble themselves. Another's economic status is not their business.

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Sunday, May 8, 2022 -- 3:31 PM

it seems to my mind a valid

it seems to my mind a valid and insightful point is being made here. To get around Bentham's hedonistic version of utilitarianism, that only the quantity of pleasure is at issue, so that the more of it that's possessed in aggregate the better off society will be, Mill introduces the distinction between different qualities of pleasure. In this respect, sadistic and vulgar pleasures, such as that derived from a mob's stoning a criminal to death, would fulfill Bentham's criterion but would clearly be harmful to society, as they would condition the development of abilities to seek one's own hedonic self-maximization in the wrong way, towards harming others in addition to pleasing one's self, violating Mill's central principle expressed in On Liberty: "The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over [another]..., is to prevent harm to others."

But this conversion from quantity to quality with regards to pleasure carries a hidden premise of acceptable arbitrariness of class-distinction, which I interpret to be referred to in participant Neuman's remarks above: If the same degree of pleasure-quality is gotten by an upper-class English gentleman's consumption of a steak and lobster dinner as can be produced by a lower-class London factory worker's consumption of a bowl of porridge after a fourteen hour workday, by Mill's conversion, any improvement in the factory worker's situation might reduce the pleasure-quality of the porridge, and therefore would receive by implication no recommendation for it.

A contradiction does seem, then, to prevail in Mill's reform of Bentham's theory by distinguishing between quality of pleasures and his inveterate emphasis on their proportional quantity, so that it remains to be seen whether something like a reverse conversion may remedy this instability, or instead offer some alternative which better fulfills its aims.

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Daniel

Saturday, May 7, 2022 -- 3:41 PM

Can utilitarianism work in

Can utilitarianism work in converse form? Instead of converting happiness-quality into the quantity of its bearers, could one convert the quality of its bearers into happiness-quantity?

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tartarthistle

Sunday, May 8, 2022 -- 11:36 AM

Yes, that's exactly how math

我很好奇在你描述的情况下数学是如何工作的。似乎我们应该给我们自己作为一个整体使用一个比例:黄金中庸(就像在毕达哥拉斯的数学中,最伟大的和谐)。然而,现在实际应用的似乎是相反的比例(就像黄金分割,最大的破坏)。数学家能插句话吗?鉴于技术和社交媒体平台,当数学语言积极应用于私人持有的社会和政治理论(“最大”、“最小”、“平均”、“所有”、“平等”、“真相”、“是”等)时,考虑其强大的环境效应将是件好事。谢谢。

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Daniel

Tuesday, May 10, 2022 -- 11:56 AM

Assuming one understands Mill

Assuming one understands Mill in the context of the liberal tradition of the European Enlightenment, that the greatest good for human beings is also the most rational one, and that this rational goal is happiness, both individually and collectively in aggregate, then no argument needs to be made against a claim that happiness is not the most rational goal, and that makes the primary aim of social analysis to discover the most rational means to achieve what is already accepted by his readers as uncontroversial.

Utility is the name given to whatever contributes to happiness (according to Mill). As a teleological principle, the value of its use is determined by its consequence. The direct consequence is pleasure or pain, and because Mill following Bentham describes happiness as a sum of pleasures broadly understood, its indirect consequence is happiness where instantiation of the principle of utility generates sufficiently more pleasurable consequences than unpleasant. This gets the theory into trouble when, as noted above, the same pleasure-quality might occur under differing relevant conditions which are overlooked in pleasure-volume calculations. One way out is suggested in the book "Utilitarianism", where pleasures whose net sum generates happiness must be conditioned by choice, so that any which are not preceded by a period of deliberation are excluded. This distinguishes between happiness and mere satisfaction, where the latter can be seen as evidence of one's immediate needs or momentary desires being met, and the former as only the higher pleasures which produce the phenomenon. Conditioning happiness-producing pleasure by prior deliberation has the additional benefit of confirming that the range of alternatives have been viewed first, prior to its pursuit. To calculate its quantity in a given context could not then be by the evidence of its occurrence, but by the reasons for its being chosen. In the above example, only the English Gentleman would have a good reason for his choice of pleasure, whereas the Factory worker's would be a mere bi-product of satisfying a basic need, and thus not factor into the calculation, even if in evidentiary terms they might be of equal quality. Judged on a normative criterion for pleasure-choice, then, the event of a pleasure's occurrence can not be confirmed by any evidence for its being produced. Prior knowledge of its alternates in the choice of which pleasure will occur might leave a clear footprint, but since the range of alternatives is different in each case, no standard for what it would look like can be supplied. Rather, one has to presuppose what kind of pleasures could not occur without prior deliberation, in order to determine their quantitative measure. The largest quantity of happiness for the most people has to therefore rely on an indemonstrable, axiomatically assumed concept of what humans are or human nature is. By a qualitative assumption, then, the utility of an action can in aggregate be quantitatively determined within a reliable measure of probability. The diversity of conditions across individuals under which the range of alternatives is presented in pleasure-choice deliberation, however, might be so distinct as to be incomparable, yet in terms of utility be of equal value as to the calculation of the greatest number of those to whom it occurs. For an accurate count, it seems that prior conditions for roughly the same range of alternate pleasures itself would have to be shared (even if the chosen ones can be different in each case), in addition to the criterion of what determines it as a precondition for the utilitarian value of any given pleasure. In Victorian society that would have been a difficult trick, but Mill's central goal would seem to suggest its inexorable eventuality if the calculation and therefore scientific promotion of the quantity of happiness a society possesses can be undertaken.

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tartarthistle

Thursday, May 12, 2022 -- 9:27 PM

Smoking a cigarette now...

Smoking a cigarette now...

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Tuesday, May 24, 2022 -- 10:45 AM

--Fulfilling at least one

——满足至少一个基本的实用标准,作为与确认相关的因果因素,快乐的产生和痛苦的相对消失。利用密尔在他的“逻辑体系”中的划分,我们可以从三个方面了解这种基本联系,即基于参考文献、命题和归纳推广之间的区别。它的名字必须包含引用的标记,比如"smoke"索赔是由快乐的事业的理解必须有一个命题形式,也就是说,“如果人y抽香烟x,那么他们的关系R的燃烧是一个因果x在y”生产快乐,或者更正式,对于所有x R y的关系,一些对x y站在关系R。和归纳推广的索赔是一个经验的可靠性不包括它的反面:香烟被理解为一组的成员是由因果属性所决定的,在它们燃烧的条件下,它们产生快乐,并排除疼痛的人y,他们的吸入器。在这第三个标准下存在着测试其效用的可能性,因此它对吸烟者的幸福贡献相对于总体幸福。在第三卷(归纳法)第8章中,密尔描述了“实验探究”的四种方法(原来是五种):一致、差异、连接、剩余和伴随变异。每一种都构成了对一种现象原因的确定的变异。第一(A)是它的事件只有一个共同的情况。第二个(D)是所有的情况都是共享的,除了一个现象的两个发生。 The third (J) is where occurrences of a phenomenon share in only one circumstance and at least two occurrences of other phenomena share in nothing but the absence of that circumstance, showing that the two sets differ with regards to only one circumstance. The fourth (R) is where parts of the phenomenon known (by induction) to be effects of antecedent causes are separated from it, showing that the remaining effects are of the antecedent causes that remain. And the fifth (CV) is where any group of variations of a phenomenon occurring together with a mono-variant one is the cause of the phenomenon as its effect or side-effect (bi-product). Examples provided by way of explanation can be stated as:

(A) Scurvy is caused by a dietary lack of fruit.
(D) Where two swords are forged identically except for the difference that the harder of the two was dipped in water and the other wasn't, so that being dipped in water is judged as the cause of its increased hardness.
(J) That scurvy is caused by a lack of fruit in one's diet, is a more reliable conclusion if the observation is made that those who include fruit in their diet don't get scurvy.
(R) In testing for phlogiston, the substance which produces the heat from combustion, metal is burned and what remains is slightly heavier that the original metal, showing that combustion must be a combination of the fuel with the air, rather than only a consumption of the fuel purported to contain the phlogiston, so that the unknown element added by the air is named "oxygen", or "what spoils the wine".
(CV) The moon's effect on ocean tides.

If applied to the combustion of a quantity of tobacco for the purpose of respiratory intake to a claim of net pleasure gain over discomfort, one could say that with regards to-
(A) the criterion is applicable. A particular variety of pleasure is reliably associated the with the cigarette as its cause.
(D) applies to the preference of one brand over another.
(J) seems to apply as well. The pleasure associated with nicotine can be said with a good amount of accuracy to be unknown to non-smokers.
(R) clearly does not apply. What's left when the tobacco's gone can in not be said to be a cause of the pleasure of its being consumed.
(CV) also does not apply. Any variations of its effects and causes relative to each other, say, the size of the cigarette and where the smoker is standing, are causally independent.

在密尔看来,吸烟带来的快乐具有功利主义性质,因为它的原因是一种特殊的协议,它是基于对物质来源的消耗而产生的,当物质来源消失时,它的效果就会停止并且与形式的变化无关?在我看来,没有办法否认它,因为与吸烟有关的任何负面健康影响,即使对不吸烟的人来说是可以避免的痛苦,但如果理解为对社会在任何特定时间拥有的总体数量的贡献,即吸烟者在她或他的以尼古丁为基础的化学注射中提供的数量,则不能凌驾于快乐数量之上。

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Tim Smith

Wednesday, May 25, 2022 -- 3:51 AM

I am no scholar of Mill nor a

I am no scholar of Mill nor a fan of Tartarthistle’s philosophy in general, but you do both wrong here.

Honest feedback – you are using too many words and could have expressed this in less than half the time with more clarity.

If anything can be said of John Stuart Mill, it is this.

He loved his wife.

我们很容易将密尔与现代并列,使他的论点看起来矛盾,在他自己的时代,他们是冲突的。密尔的核心思想是浪漫的、反先天的。

二手烟是你头脑中看不到的一种方式。如果密尔了解健康问题,如果他能通过不吸烟来照顾他人,他就不会吸烟,即使在任何时间抽一口烟会给他带来极大的快乐,并在全球范围内增加效用。他当然不会在他妻子面前这样做。

We can learn quite a bit from reading and re-reading Mill. I’m confused by your post, even as it demonstrates presumptive erudition. Let me re-read this passage and think about this ADJRCV. I’m not sure it means what you think it does. You are reading, and that is good. I am doing the same and missing the point for the most part. It’s not the first time, nor the last.

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Daniel

Wednesday, May 25, 2022 -- 1:10 PM

Quite the contrary, it seems

恰恰相反,在我看来,你似乎抓住了一个中心点,没有这个中心点,就无法理解他的作品:他是一个激进的经验主义者(你所谓的“反先天”)。我认为称他为浪漫主义者是错误的。他是自由党人。他的古典自由主义思想与他激进的经验主义在幸福与快乐的等式上不期而遇。快乐是幸福的自由意志主义形式——确认,因为除了接受它的人,没有人能充分确认它的发生。快乐-效用的概念是指一个人如何从个人的幸福中获得作为一个特定社会中普遍存在的幸福的快乐事件的总和。在亚里士多德之后,决定个人幸福的标准是唯一具有经验可证实形式的标准,因此,如果能找到任何这样的决定,就必须适用于全体人口。因为,在社会自由的条件下,不存在对个人快乐两面三折的共同动机,每个人实际上都是在为集体幸福投票。另一方面,某些产生方式的负面影响(例如,烟草直接燃烧对不吸烟者健康的影响)必须由其归纳概括的可靠性来决定,因此,一个人的快乐的质量与另一个人的直接不快乐的质量之间永远不可能存在对立。即使在今天,虽然我们比米尔的时代对香烟的不良影响了解得更多,但我们仍然不清楚,减少吸烟是否会凌驾于其他健康优先事项之上,比如减少汽车尾气; so that the effort in a less important area to the neglect of a more important area would cause an overall reduction of a society's happiness which, as determined by a purely empirical criterion, can only be on the basis of an aggregate sum of pleasures.

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Tim Smith

Saturday, May 28, 2022 -- 6:40 AM

To be against does not imply

To be against does not imply being for.

我们不同意,但我不是这里的学者。穆勒对他妻子的奉献是浪漫的,如果没有其他的话,这一点就配得上这个称号。

约翰·斯图亚特·密尔有很多观点,有很多立场,在科学探究和科学方法上大错特错。ADJRCV是一门危险的大炮,用于发射相关物体不确定或复杂的目标。我确实浏览并阅读了密尔的《逻辑体系》(A System of Logic),包括关于方法和探究的第8章。如果有助于点餐或赢一场Clue游戏,它就缺乏权威性。在现实生活中应用这些方法需要密尔自己没有的判断力。这并不是说,在他的时代,其他人明确地这样做。密尔说的几乎没有什么可以反驳的,也没有什么可以归功于别人。

如果JS Mill是一个激进分子的话,那就是“英国人”。最重要的是,他从来不是个孩子,这是英国人最英伦的命运。这让他崩溃了好几次。也许他在婚姻中恢复了一些,但我不认为这是真的。他是那种饼干怪兽中的怪兽。我很想认识他。If he were to ask me for a cookie, I’d have given him a hug and sincere thanks for all his work.

讨论柏拉图和亚里士多德是很好的,因为我们有几千年的时间来从他们的错误中恢复过来。谈论一位19世纪的哲学家要危险得多,就像假定他们的探究或写作风格一样。当任何作者因为想不出替代模型而提出有效性时,在这种情况下,买家就会变得谨慎起来。我们应该警惕的主要原因是,200岁的哲学家在很大程度上是正确的。

I don’t know here. I’ve read some. I’m not sure what is relevant to Tartarthistle’s cigarette, but I think it is deep. I may be blowing smoke which is also another possibility. Maybe it is both.

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Daniel

Saturday, May 28, 2022 -- 2:53 PM

The cigarette is an example

The cigarette is an example of distributable pleasure-resources. The fact that it tends to kill its users does not factor prominently into Mill's eudaimonic hedonism-calculus. For that would always remain an hypothesis, and hence in principle, unlike reception of pleasure-stimulus in individuals, open to empirical contradiction. In the post of 5/25/22, 3:13 pm, second paragraph from the end, you've offered a counter-example to this picture by suggesting that if Mill had known about its negative health effects but still enjoyed smoking, he wouldn't have done so around someone he cared about, e.g. the woman who he was married to. The question thus arises whether care for his wife overrides the care for his smoking pleasure. Or, differently, can an inductive premise capable of being adjusted override an immediate one which precludes any adjustment-need? Can a naturalized ethics survive a well confirmed physics? Apart from whether or not an answer to this question can be found in Mill's work, it strikes me as remaining unresolved.

在上面文章的第二段中,你指出你意识到了柏拉图和亚里士多德作品中的某些错误。我认为,如果能指出这些错误是什么,以及在文本的哪里可以找到它们,将是非常有趣和有益的。比如,在亚里士多德的《政治学》的第一本书中,可以找到这样的例子吗?

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Tim Smith

Sunday, May 29, 2022 -- 9:59 AM

There are too many learnings

There are too many learnings since antiquity to point out.

It is enough to point Mills errors in method.

我们很快就会重温柏拉图和亚里士多德的思想。不能被质疑的段落太少了。

The simplest ancient example would be natural science models, but logic is more lasting and relevant here and in general.

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Daniel

Sunday, May 29, 2022 -- 12:30 PM

One error I suppose would be

One error I suppose would be Aristotle's heliocentrism, which seems to be decisively disproven. But what about the claim Aristotle makes in the Metaphysics at 980a22? Could a counter-example to it be found in your own body of work?

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Tim Smith

Sunday, May 29, 2022 -- 7:39 PM

Stevie Wonder.

Stevie Wonder.

Can you wrap this into Mill? I think we need to do that or stall this for a show on Aristotle.

If there is one other person on the planet who is reading this - here is the Perseus Project translation.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0...

"All men naturally desire knowledge. An indication of this is our esteem for the senses; for apart from their use we esteem them for their own sake, and most of all the sense of sight. Not only with a view to action, but even when no action is contemplated, we prefer sight, generally speaking, to all the other senses.The reason of this is that of all the senses sight best helps us to know things, and reveals many distinctions.

动物天生具有感觉能力,有些动物因此获得记忆能力,而有些动物则没有。"

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Daniel

Sunday, May 29, 2022 -- 9:35 PM

对,就是这个。

对,就是这个。诚然,这是一个题外话,我的问题是针对你5/28/22上午6:40的帖子第二段开头所提出的一个主张——关于古代哲学家所犯的错误,(暗示你知道他们是什么,在哪里可以找到他们),涉及到文章的第一个句子。这是其中之一吗?对于那些声称从未见过任何例外情况的人,我们该说些什么呢?只是那种不可能性不能排除可能性。亚里士多德提出了一个先天的主张:phusei,“自然”,意味着独立于任何可能的经验和随后的经验证实的约束。但可以肯定的是,他就是从那里得到的。密尔避免了这个错误。亚里士多德大概不会太担心,如果他遇到一个不渴望知识的人,因为这可以解释为仅仅是一个人,他不需要改变他所属的物种的特征。在这种关系中,亚里士多德认为一个人缺乏任何一种感觉能力,以支持他的先天主张,但这并不削弱关于人类本性的论断,因此也不能构成一个足以反驳其内容的反例。

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Tim Smith

Sunday, May 29, 2022 -- 10:04 PM

我喜欢这个。

我喜欢这个。

I'm not sure that Mill doesn't do this. I say again... I am no Mill scholar, nor Aristotle geek or scholar of any sort.

But I do like to read and honestly react without caution.

我喜欢这个。谢谢。

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Daniel's picture

Daniel

Tuesday, May 31, 2022 -- 9:01 AM

Thanks for what? --Asking a

Thanks for what? --Asking a question which you've refused to answer? Claiming ignorance of a subject after having participated in a discussion of it is not sufficient. A defense of the priority of inductive-generalization with regards to collective health issues over pleasure-resource distribution on the basis of non-contradictable quantitative determination, as expressed in your post of 5/25/22 above, could be, but this potentially valuable service to your readers has so far been denied. Indeed, even in the case where you've claimed an unconditioned certitude, that ancient philosophers have made numerous "mistakes", you've avoided the question of identifying even one of the most basic and obvious ones in the post modern era: whether or not a single instance of a person not desiring any more knowledge than already possessed overturns Aristotle's sweeping claim at 980a22. Could this be on account of an apprehension on your part that your own work might be interpreted as providing such an instance? If so, sufficient grounds are not available at present on my part to preclude such an interpretation.

And as long as an exchange-attempt at thanking has been initiated, however, even if its inceptive grounds may remain not unmurky, I'd like to give mine for the cookie-monster analogy in your post of 5/28/22, which could be described as a reverse Malthusianism of a hedonistic Leviathan, and may merit an energetic update.

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Thursday, June 2, 2022 -- 12:09 AM

Daniel,

Daniel,

I have been trying to respond here but am running into the Spam filter.

I'm told by my confidants, that the world is a better place for it.

Thanks for this.

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Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Thursday, June 2, 2022 -- 7:52 AM

Daniel,

Daniel,

Let me do this with audio files.

1
https://www.speakpipe.com/msg/s/174998/15/zypmwl6k2t6z1oxi
2
https://www.speakpipe.com/msg/s/174998/16/gpz2iy891ldb0rx1
3
https://www.speakpipe.com/msg/s/174998/17/zvoj8wsqvd4gb1us

和我说的不太一样,我们来看看这是否可行。我把我以前的评论发送给网站管理员,还没有收到回复。有一件事我没有背诵并试图在下面添加,甚至是真正的希腊语。

For others (that is really stretching the pale on plural) who want to look or read:

In Greek ==>https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0...

In English==>https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0...

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