A dialogue on Biracial Identity

18 February 2011

This week's show is a rebroadcast of our show about biracial identity, first aired back in 2009. You can think of it as our contribution to Black History Month, I guess. I wrote the following little dialogue as a way of getting the juices flowing on this issue. I republish it here pretty much without change.

一个黑人(BG)和一个白人(WG)在酒吧里喝酒。你可能会认为他们是约翰·佩里和肯·泰勒——但既然我把话说给了这两个人,那就不要让约翰对这一切负责。
BG: I've been thinking a lot about biracial identities, lately because I see that my favorite radio show,中国伊朗亚洲杯比赛直播要做一期关于它的节目。
我想知道他们会说些什么。我的意思是,多亏了奥巴马,混血成为了新的潮流。But I don't really see that there are deepphilosophical与双种族身份相关的问题提出了。你呢?
BG: Yeah , I do. Biracial identities challenge our old understanding of race. I think biracial people and their struggles to constitute their identities are beginning to push our old concepts of race to the breaking point.
WG: This is America, dude. Race is a reality and race isn't going anywhere anytime soon. As a black guy, you should know that.
BG: Whatever do you mean by that remark?
我的意思是黑人每天都在经历种族的现实。像我这样的白人,倾向于认为自己没有种族歧视,就好像我们没有种族。这是一种白人特权,而你们黑人在我们这个种族化的社会里是享受不到的。当然,我并不是说白人认为自己没有种族歧视是正确的。事实上,我们的种族意识的一部分就是认为自己是非种族化的,如果这说得通的话。
BG: It makes lots of sense. In America, white is racially "unmarked." Black is racially "marked." if you are a member of the unmarked race, you entitle yourself to think of yourself as somehow free of race and you entitle yourself to think of the other as the racialized other. On other hand, if you are part of racially marked group, you aren't so free to deny race. And if you are one of the racially marked "others" you are sort of confronted with your racial difference, your racial markedness at every turn. And that gives you a distinctive form of racial consciousness.
WG: Er, well, something like that -- I think. But back to biracial people. You said that they somehow challenge our old understanding of race. But I don't see it. Think of animal and plant species. You can cross breed animal and plant species to produce hybrids -- sometimes stable and fertile hybrids. But that doesn't challenge our ideas about species, does it? In the same vein, you can cross breed races to produce people of biracial ancestry. Where’s the challenge to our understanding of race in that? I don't get it.
BG: But you're thinking of race as if it were analogous to biological species. But it just isn't. Once upon a time, people did believe that there were such things as biologically grounded racial essences. And racial essences were supposed to distinguish people from each other in socially and morally relevant ways. But modern biology will have none of that.
WG: Dude, are you really suggesting that there are no races? Let's follow the logic of that out a little. If there are no races, then you are not a black man, I am not a white man, and Obama is not a man of bi-racial ancestry. But that’s absurd isn't it? Let me put the question to you directly. Dude, are you now, or have you ever been, a black man?
BG:当然,我是一个黑人。你是一个白人,而奥巴马——嗯,他是一个更复杂的人。Everybody thinks of him as our firstblack总统。但他真的是一个白人,就像他是一个黑人一样吗?为什么他不被认为是我们的第一位混血总统,甚至只是一长串白人总统中的另一位?到底是什么让奥巴马成为黑人?
WG: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. You're going too fast for me. I'm confused. You seem to want to claim that races aren’t really real. But you defiantly – or was it reluctantly -- admitted to being a black man. What gives? You can't have it both ways. Either there are no races, and you are not a black man. Or there are races and you are a black man.
BG: I didn't say races aren't real. I said they aren'tbiologicallyreal. The fact that races aren’tbiologicallyreal, doesn’t mean there’snothing种族的概念。国家身份在生物学上也不是真实的。但是,国家身份在人类事务中可以发挥相当大的作用。
所以你认为种族是一个社会现实,即使它不是一个生物现实。我可以买。但我不明白混血身份是如何像你说的那样,把我们的种族观念推向崩溃的边缘的。想想民族身份。多种族人群的事实是否将我们旧的种族概念推向了崩溃的边缘?
BG:嗯,我不确定。但是种族和民族在某些方面是不同的,在另一些方面是相似的。我认为我们需要区别对待。让我们来区分种族和种族认同。我想把种族的概念保留给那些假装有生物学基础的东西,把种族认同保留给有社会和文化基础的东西。当我承认自己是黑人时——顺便说一句,我很自豪地这么做——我并没有对我的生理特征提出任何要求。我是在对我的社会和文化遗产提出要求。
WG: Now it just sounds like racial identifications, as you are construing them, are very much akin to ethnic identifications or national identifications. You seem to think we've got two things going on without being very clear about them. We've got a set of ethnicity like racial identifications and a set of would be biological racial categories. Is there a problem with that?
BG:我认为有。我想你终于明白我的意思了。回到我之前所说的生物和种族。即使我们现在知道种族分类在生物学上是空的,我们仍然有这种根深蒂固的文化习惯,用种族来定义我们自己。但事实证明,我们的种族认同植根于,嗯,其实没什么。或者至少它们没有固定在我们曾经认为的那种东西上。我认为,我们对混血身份的理解帮助我们看到了这一点。
WG:我不确定我是否明白这一点。但是让我来试一下,看看我是否能理解你的意思。再以巴拉克·奥巴马为例。他属于哪个种族?他为什么会属于那个种族?他是黑人吗?白色的?或者他完全是另一个人?在过去,一滴法则告诉我们答案。如果你有一滴“黑人的血”,那么你实际上就是黑人。 But that's clearly non-sensical, especially if we're thinking of racial categories as biologically grounded. But suppose we let culture and stuff like that be our guide. Given Obama's quite distinctive upbringing, you wouldn't be wrong to think that from a social/cultural perspective he's much more of a white dude than a black dude.
BG: Of course, neither blacks as a whole nor whites as a whole are cultural monoliths. But if Obama's life story represent some strand of some typical American subculture, it's certainly not a paradigmatically black strand of the plethora of American subcultures. I don't think anybody would deny that.
WG: So what makes this guy a black dude?
BG: He's decided that he's black and his decision counts as authentic, I think, because he's got one black parent.
WG:就目前来看,这似乎是对的。但这还远远不够。问问你自己,奥巴马能决定他是一个白人,而不是一个黑人或混血儿吗?
BG:我认为你在这里发现了一些重要的东西。在我看来,奥巴马对于他的种族自我认同有两个,而且只有两个社会可以接受的选择。就像为数不多但越来越多的人认为自己是某种多种族先锋一样,他可以允许自己是一个混血儿——句号。或者,他也可以允许自己做一些更标准、更少文化威胁的事情,把自己定义为黑人——句号。但我们还没有到社会允许巴拉克·奥巴马(Barack Obama)自我认同为白人而非黑人的地步。
WG:这里的“允许”是什么意思?他可是该死的美国总统。他可以自由地选择自己的身份。还记得乔治·布什一世和他拒绝吃西兰花吗?
BG: You and I both know that Obama isn't free to self-identify as white and deny the black part of himself. First it would so radically change his political narrative that it would be political suicide. But politics aside, there's a much, much broader point here that gets us right to the heart of things. Old fashioned white people and old fahisoned black people have a perhaps not fully conscious, but deeply ingrained cultural investment in maintaining the racial status quo. They, in effect, try to force biracial people into the old comfortable and familiar racial categories. For some reason -- I'm not sure why -- we pigeon-hole biracial people into the socially “marked” race – in the case of black and white in America that's the black race -- rather than allow them into the socially unmarked race – the white race (at least in America from its beginning until now).
WG: Now I finally see why you think the struggles of biracial people to constitute their identities -- racialized and non-racialized -- is a threat to our old ways of thinking. They just don't fit. And our attempts to make them fit distorts many things.
BG: That's one reason I referred to old-fashioned white people and black people. I think maybe some younger people are beginning to see things differently. They are willing to allow racial identifications to be as fluid and multiple as ethnic identifications.
你说的是后种族时代的先兆。我认为这只是幻想,短期内不会实现。但这是一件棘手的事情,我开始头晕了。我想我需要听听即将到来的一期《哲学谈话》来理清这一切。中国伊朗亚洲杯比赛直播
Photo byClay BanksonUnsplash

Comments(14)


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Guest

2009年2月27日,星期五——下午4点

我是混血儿,日本人和白人。The classes I t

我是混血儿,日本人和白人。我以自己的身份上的课让我相信,虽然我的老师们有重要的历史可以分享,但我们的交集并不像人们想象的那么多。相反,我已经开始相信新一代的人迟早会看到人类皮肤的颜色,就像我们看到天空的颜色一样。
I am very aware of my racial identity and claim it with as much pride as I can, as that is my defense as a minority and female. Also, I know that I have less prejudices towards other ethnicities than my ancestors from either side.

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2009年2月27日,星期五——下午4点

Hi, Ken, and thanks for the not-so-sneak preview v

Hi, Ken, and thanks for the not-so-sneak preview version of your upcoming show. I think that your point here: "we pigeon-hole biracial people into the socially 'marked' race ? in the case of black and white in America that's the black race -- rather than allow them into the socially unmarked race ? the white race (at least in America from its beginning until now)" is hard to deny, at least about men who have one black parent and one white one. But I don't know how true it is for women with similar parentage, and I think that it's very questionable when we look at people whose "marked" parent is East Asian, or Latino, or American Indian. (But then I get confused about whether those kinds of identity are biracial rather than bi/multi-ethnic, etc.) I hope that your guests and/or commenters can shed more light on those other kinds of biracial identities.

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Guest

Saturday, February 28, 2009 -- 4:00 PM

In your blog, you identify the two guys as WG and

在你的博客里,你把这两个人定义为WG和BG。这是它们的名字,用于对话。因此,它们等同于使用“Bill”和“Sam”。或者“玛丽”和“玛莎”。或者"X"和" y "命名的问题之一是,我们有一种强烈的潜意识倾向,会对名字进行刻板印象或赋予其含义,就像我们对其他特定标签所做的那样。例如,如果你用了"巴菲"和"勒罗伊"或者《吉姆·许》和《神探南茜》
I am a 70 year old white male named David. Your use of WG as a name led me to identify more strongly with him (or with that character, maybe it's a female WG, who knows? I was making an assumption.)
在我的原生家庭中,我的父亲自称是亨氏57 (Heinz 57),但主要是苏格兰-爱尔兰混血,我的母亲是两个挪威移民的孩子。
Her skin tone was light tan and her hair was black, but she had blue eyes.
My dad did look "Irish" or "Scot," having pasty white skin, reddish hair, and blue eyes. He would not tan in the sun, just sunburn. I'm like that.
But none of us, me, or my two parents, are white. We're more pinkish. I almost said "flesh tone," but what is that? What if your flesh is tinted with dark brown?
Here's an anecdote based on a chance encounter in an airport terminal waiting room. My wife and I were chatting with a fellow passenger, also white. She was also a grandmother. Call her Shirley for now. Shirley was talking about her precocious kindergartner granddaughter, little Janie. Shirley said Janie watches the news and keeps up with politics. This conversation took place last fall right after the presidential election.
雪莉说她问珍妮奥巴马当选总统有什么重要意义。
简妮说:“意义重大是什么意思?”
Shirley said, "Well, it means that Barack Obama is the first Black to be elected president in history."
然后简妮问:“布莱克是什么意思?”
Turns out that Janie's preschool class is multicultural. All different races and colors. But Janie never noticed. She thought Black was merely one of the crayons in the box.
By the way, my son, who is white, married a black woman. Her skin is very dark. They have a son who is now a mixed race child. He attends a predominantly black middle school.
The two parents are now divorced and my son has remarried to a woman from South America, with olive complexion. My son has custody, but the grandson spends significant time shuttling back and forth between his parents each week. His mother has two more children, both black, from different men. There's been several in and out of her house.
His step-mother loves him and treats him like a son, but there's always step-issues; besides, she speaks almost no English, which really hurts their communication within the family.
我孙子对他的种族身份有些困惑。我不能怪他。同样,考虑到他混乱的家庭状况,我也担心他长大后会有一些真正的困难,不知道如何与女人亲密相处,尤其是与妻子或其他重要的人。根据他的经验,这些事情看起来都是暂时的,而且矛盾的。
But that's another philosophical topic, I suppose.
Good luck with this discussion. I hope it will raise consciousness, and possibly, help us with our human relationships regardless of race, ethnic, or other linguistic and social stereotypes that make up our mental categories about others.

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 -- 4:00 PM

If anyone is still tracking this discussion, I wan

If anyone is still tracking this discussion, I want to add that the movie Australia has an excellent subtext about a biracial child that comprises the narrative thread that holds the whole sprawling story together. Check it out.

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Guest

Thursday, March 5, 2009 -- 4:00 PM

I wanted to pick up just a little on the comments

I wanted to pick up just a little on the comments of kids. My daughter (white and 6) was trying to describe which of her friends she was talking about. She said that her friend had dark skin and black hair. I thought, of course she has black hair, and then realized that my daughter doesn't see that. Good for her and I look forward to seeing what she notices over time.

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Guest

Friday, March 6, 2009 -- 4:00 PM

Dear President Obama: First and foremost, congr

Dear President Obama:
First and foremost, congratulations on being our 44th President of the United States of America.
在你的竞选活动中,我同意你要求改变的呼吁,我现在仍然如此;改变我们的经济,改变华盛顿的办事方式。
你就是积极的事情可以从改变中发生的缩影。从几十年前席卷我们国家的通婚种族分裂,到今天一个以接纳各种文化、背景和肤色的人而闻名的国家。然而,我在等待一个大的改变?接受真实的自己吗?上帝创造了混血的人,我们的美国总统。我和我的家人对你给我们伟大国家数百万人传达的信息感到失望,你说,如果你是混血儿,你可以选择成为一个混血儿。竞赛。
Those who believe that a person who is one part black should identify ONLY with that race support the intolerant one-drop rule created by a racially prejudiced government at a particular point in history. Despite that rule being held illegal (U.S. Supreme Court outlawed Virginia's ban on inter-racial marriage in Loving v. Virginia (1967), it declared Plecker's Virginia Racial Integrity Act and the one-drop rule unconstitutional) there are some who want to hold to that fanatical and discriminatory rule.
This close minded thinking underlies the attack often faced by biracial people that they are trying to deny or are ashamed of who they are. Being biracial does not mean denying the colorful heritages we possess. Personally, I understand the difficulty you may have encountered growing up as a biracial young man, especially having a brown complexion.
Yes, biracial people from the time they are born to the time they die are constantly asked to choose their "primary" race, or others will do it for them. We are called offensive names like; yellow banana, oreo, mutt, etc., all meant to hurt who we truly represent, a nation of one blood. However, this is a new day, a changed day where we can finally embrace who we really are.
To be the 44th President of the United States, who is biracial, should be a proud statement of equality that exemplifies and represents what the United States is known for; a nation that embraces all shades, colors, and cultures of people.
Other well-known people, who are biracial, have expressed their sentiments when asked the question, what are you; Derek Jeter of the New York Yankees said ?I?m not black or white but both of these things.? Vin Diesel refuses to segregate himself to one race and identifies himself as biracial. Growing up, he had many questions about his ethnic origins and what they made him. Although most people guess he's part Italian and African-American, he said "I'm hoping I can show kids where you came from isn't as important as what you can make of yourself."
和你一样,奥巴马总统,我是两个种族的混合体。我妈妈是黑人,我爸爸是白人。就像你的父母一样,我的父母能够看到并体验到一种跨越种族鸿沟的爱。
Throughout the years, as I got older and like you, I faced some extremely difficult and joyful times. Early in my life, I experienced both the harsh reality of my mother and father divorcing and then I witnessed the wonderful blending of new stepparents.
As a biracial child, I remember telling my father about a time when I was in the third grade my teacher asked for the children to stand up based upon their race. When she told all the white kids to stand up, I stood up. When she told all the Hispanic kids to stand up, I sat down. Then she told all the Black kids to stand up and I stood up. My father said that was a defining moment for me in being biracial that I still stand up for today.
When I was 15, I saw a movie with Halle Berry and thought the world of her, as did most teenage males my age. However, I saw her as someone like me, biracial. On my sweet-16 birthday, my father arranged for Ms. Berry to surprise me with a telephone call. From that point on the two of us exchanged letters and referred to each other as big sister and little brother. I believed Ms. Berry was a face of hope for biracial people. I looked up to her because she embodied the blending of races. However as I got older and much to my dismay, I heard Ms. Berry claim that she was black not biracial. This caused me to see the woman, who I once called my big sister, a runaway from all who are biracial. Then another face of hope showed up, you President Obama, only for me to again experience disappointment.
While you were sworn-in as our 44th President and my Commander and Chief that I am proud for you to be, I am in Afghanistan. For the past 10 years, I have faithfully with love and honor served in our Armed Forces. I serve not for myself but for the love of the United States of America.
On election night, you said ?This victory alone is not the change we seek ? it is only the chance for us to make that change. And that cannot happen if we go back to the way things were. It cannot happen without you. For that is the true genius of America ? that America can change.?
Therefore, President Obama we cannot go back to the one-drop of black blood rule. With you as President, America has truly come a long way. However as you said, ?there is so much more to do.? As with your children I to want my future children to live to see the next century and be as fortunate as the woman you spoke about, Ann Nixon Cooper; to see a change for all races of people including those of us who are biracial.
奥巴马总统,你的问题是我们会取得什么样的进展?对一个种族的认同,给45年前马丁·路德·金博士的梦想蒙上了一层阴影。我梦想有一天,我的四个孩子将生活在一个不是以他们的肤色,而是以他们的品格优劣来评价他们的国家里。
In your speech "A More Perfect Union" you said that race is an issue that you believed this nation could not afford to ignore right now and I agree. I am part of that next generation of young people you spoke to who possesses the attitude, belief and openness to change that gives you the greatest hope.
I can only ask that during your administration you renew the discussion about race and stand up for me and all of us who are biracial as I stood-up in the 3rd grade. President Obama, now is your chance for your children and all of us who are biracial to clear the clouds about race by answering the call. This is your moment. This is your time.
Respectively,
SPC. Eric C J,
U.S. Army

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Guest

Thursday, May 7, 2009 -- 5:00 PM

A multiracial background is going to be increasing

随着我们的世界不断向前发展并拥抱人性的基本统一性,多种族背景将越来越普遍。在美国,多种族背景的美丽模范美国人的例子比比皆是,在我看来,他们打破了各种背景之间人为的障碍。In Portland, OR where I live, there is even a blog in the Examiner that focuses on biracial issueshttp://www.examiner.com/x-9288-Portland-Biracial-Family-Issues-Examiner.

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Guest

Thursday, November 19, 2009 -- 4:00 PM

Everybody and I mean everybody has called Barack a

Everybody and I mean everybody has called Barack a "black man" but I have yet to hear him call himself a "black man." He makes references to being black but to my limited knowledge, he falls short of placing the hat on his head. I've been wrong before, but I'd like to know when he called himself, "black."

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Guest

Tuesday, January 5, 2010 -- 4:00 PM

When I first entered university, I was living on m

当我刚上大学的时候,我独自生活,必须自己支付账单。
So for two years I got by working the night shift in a factory. Athough study during the day and work during the night took a toll on my body, it was a great time in my life and I remember those days with great fondness.
On my first day on the job I was taken around by the Supervisor and introduced to the other guys on the shift.
The machinary was loud and everyone wore ear plugs, so the initial introductions were brief and relied mostly on a few loudly spoken words, and some facial gestures.
I clearly remember the first guy I was introduced to that night, being a young man called Adam.
亚当看起来大部分都是中国人,但和许多欧亚混血儿一样,他身上有些地方看起来不太一样。当我第一次被介绍给他的时候,因为噪音太大,我听不到他说话,他身上的安全装备也模糊了他的部分容貌。
I later found out that he was born in the US, spoke with an American accent, and had a Polish father.
As time moved on, I realised, as all the other guys on the shift knew only too well, that Adam never mentioned his mother, nor his self-evident part-chinese lineage.
Because of this, during our mealtimes Adam bore the brunt of many sarcastic comments about his background.
Some guys would ask:
"Adam, are you Chinese?"
To which he would respond by saying that "No, I am an American with a Polish father"
当被问到他的母亲是不是中国人时,亚当经常会说脏话,然后气冲冲地起身离开餐桌。
Everyone would chuckle as a result, because it was clear that Adam had an issue with being referred to as Chinese.
I remember feeling quite embarassed for him, and wondered how his mother would have felt knowing the extent he would go to hide his Chinese background.
Well, things sometimes go full circle, and here I am now the father of a bi-racial child.
For me, it would be a nightmare magnified ten-fold if my son ever behaved like he was embarassed of his Chinese or Anglo lineage.
Although at the end of the day I hope that my son sees himself as an Australian first and foremost, I hope he always recognises how lucky he is to come from two proud, enriched and admirable cultures.
我希望他能平等地接受自己身份的两部分,并从中获得他在这个世界上塑造自己身份所需要的东西。

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Guest

Saturday, February 19, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

Interesting slant! Obama is allowed to call himse

Interesting slant! Obama is allowed to call himself his choice of black or mixed-race, but he's not allowed to call himself white. Several years ago I attended a symposium on racism, and I realized I'm not innocent of the offense. Trying to pretend all races are equal is racist because it ignores the unfortunate chapter in American history that forces races to be unequal.

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Guest

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

If I were Mr. Obama I would paint the white house

If I were Mr. Obama I would paint the white house black, the trim white and the doors brownish red just to test the equity or identity of our nation.
=
MJA

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Guest

Wednesday, March 2, 2011 -- 4:00 PM

The white baby with a black head is tacky. Or is i

The white baby with a black head is tacky. Or is it a black baby's head with a white body? I can never get that straight. In either case, the icon offends---and if it doesn't, your post is meaningless. History is never unfortunate,Mr. Gross. It merely unfolds and we who are alive at the time get to observe and critique.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Friday, April 8, 2011 -- 5:00 PM

I am at least bi-racial; multi-racial if you count

I am at least bi-racial; multi-racial if you count the possibility that my ancestry includes an African or two, somewhere along the line---a plausibility I would neither discount nor disdain. But, I am at least caucasian(?) and American(?) Indian. Caucasian implies whiteness; American Indian signifies redness although the red part might be more tracible to Sino-Soviet origins, if we conclude that American Indians were not from America at all.
It is so difficult to sort this out because none of us were there when all these things happened. Dawkins thinks he has it sussed and before him Stephen J. Gould, RIP, thought he had figured it out. Maybe so, maybe not so much. If recent history is any indication, race will not matter in about 100 years. And that eventuality would have occurred, civil rights movement and legislation, notwithstanding.
难道上帝真的在掷骰子,以我们无知的代价来取乐吗?任何不能杀死你的东西都会让你更强大。至少在某种程度上是这样。请在你驳回这些想法之前考虑一下,因为它们是非常规的。我不会轻易发表声明。

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Guest

Saturday, June 25, 2011 -- 5:00 PM

I had a hard time dealing with my biracial life.

I had a hard time dealing with my biracial life. Ai first I felt white, but growing up with white kids who at times thought I was too radical and pro black was weird. Then in college a few black friends thought I was whitewashed. And then the big issue...what was my hair? A halfro? Ahhh, so I relaxed it. My brother told me I looked Latin...which was cool but I don't speak a lick of Spanish, so it was lame...and then it burned my scalp! Now I just use Mixed Chicks products....http://www.mixedchicks.net/his-mix.html... And I am getting more comfortable in the middle of the races. Maybe multiracial will become it's own classification? Or maybe one day our great grand kids just won't care...maybe.