Ken提出了很多很棒的问题，其中一些我们在节目中也提到了。现在，我想就我们没有机会提及的与宽恕有关的事情发表一些评论。首先，正如我的一个学生最近指出的那样，很多关于宽恕的哲学著作几乎都只关注如何克服某种形式的道德上的愤怒，至少在重大错误的情况下，这是努力宽恕的核心。然而，似乎很明显，并不是所有错误的受害者都会以这种方式做出情感反应。有时人们会因为被冤枉而感到悲伤、失望或不开心，而这些感觉都不是愤怒的。可以肯定的是，这些感觉似乎并不是“针对”做错事的人，即使他们是由做错事的人引起的。如果这是正确的方式来表明这一点，这种缺乏目标的情况可能会让我们怀疑，克服这种感觉是否与克服怨恨的宽恕相同。然而，其他非愤怒的情绪，如失望，可能会指向犯错的人，而且似乎没有令人信服的理由认为克服这种感觉不能涉及到宽恕。这些想法还表明，在许多关于宽恕的讨论中，把焦点放在愤怒上，可能忽略了人们在应对不当行为时的性别差异。长期以来，愤怒一直被认为是“男性”在受到委屈时的一种反应，这并非特例，但可能很典型。最近在道德哲学中关于关爱伦理的一些研究指向了个人关系中截然不同的方向，在这些方向中，“对”他人的关爱和责任可能意味着受到委屈后的不同反应; reactions that may not have as prominent a role for angry emotions as has been assumed by many writers on the topic of forgiveness.
肯在脑海中似乎也有一个与正义无关的沙漠的概念，这可能会让一些人值得被原谅。我们在节目中确实讨论过这个话题，尽管时间很短，而且太过肤浅(我承认)。我当然想了解更多关于沙漠这一概念的内容，这可能有助于理解“做错事的人应该得到原谅”的含义。

This is a great discussion. The novel The Crying Tree (www.thecryingtree.com) by Naseem Rakha delves into the issue of forgiveness in a powerful way -- I highly recommend it!

One of the more promising programs helping victims of serious and violent crime is happening in my state of Oregon. It is called Facilitated Dialogue, and it allows these individuals to meet with and speak to their offenders. Like it was said on the show, talking with the offender finding out why, how and what happened during the crime is often the best path to forgiveness. It allows victims to ask questions, and offenders to be accountable for what they did. People who have been through the program have said that the meetings have given them back their lives. Here is a link to an article about Oregon's program. There are 24 programs like Oregon's in the U.S. now.http://www.oregonlive.com/opinion/index.ssf/2010/05/healing_in_a_hard_pl...

我的父亲对他养大的四个女孩进行了极度的身体虐待和言语虐待。这些年来，我一直试图原谅他，尽管他仍然不悔改，甚至继续虐待我的妹妹们，但我做不到。在我最虔诚的时刻，我因为无法原谅他而感到非常内疚。我觉得我应该这样做，但我做不到。几年后，他死于癌症，缓慢而痛苦。不释放愤怒几乎是不可能的。他是那么的渺小，越来越弱，还能说什么呢……这是一个悲惨而可怕的情况。当一切尘埃落定，我不再感到愤怒，我只是同情他，因为他坚持保持冷漠和残忍，直到痛苦的结束，他在生活中错过了所有的爱。我觉得他在愤怒和痛苦中浪费了上帝或造物主赋予他的生命。我下定决心不再犯同样的错误!

Right
Forgiveness is the right thing
To forget? refreshing to me. ( I almost forgot )
And even better the act of compassion
For those who do us wrong,
肯定又赢了一个错误?t make it right or better,
Then better or compassion is only right.
But who has that kind of strength
相爱是对是错?
Perhaps it best not to judge or measure,
And treat everyone equal
Or simply Just right.
=

我认为在这段插曲中，尽管出现了一些有趣的想法，但谈话还是有点绕圈子。宽恕是否在道德上是必须的这个问题是一个有趣的问题，我希望我们已经讨论过为什么它可能是或可能不是，而不是简单地提出相反的观点，宽恕是宽恕者的免费礼物，宽恕是做错事的人在采取某些悔过行为时应该得到的东西。我还认为，不原谅的决定本可以以更深入的方式进行审查，因为它似乎可以像原谅的决定一样深思熟虑和合理，而不仅仅是缺乏一些原谅的能力或不健康的倾向保持愤怒。
and @ Harold Neuman, I think the logic of forgiveness is that people often need to "forgive" in order to embark upon the process of forgetting about past wrongs and moving on. I think forgiveness is just the term used to describe overcoming that first emotional hurdle, those negative feelings towards another, in order to completely forget as you suggest. Even then, blissfully disengaging from past wrongs seems like a much more difficult process than you make it out to be, but this also probably varies a lot on an individual basis.

I would say that forgiveness is very real, and very necessary. It helps both parties, for one needs to receive it, and one needs to give it. Holding grudges will eat you up, and just cutting off all those who every wrong you will quickly leave you standing alone. Now forgiving is not the same as forgetting - it does not require that we leave ourselves open to the same abuse over and over again. What is does require is that we don't keep bringing the old harm up, we don't keep a scorecard.
From a Christian perspective, whether the person deserves forgiveness is irrelevant - none of us deserves forgiveness, for if we did then we could demand it. All forgiveness is by definition unmerited. We all need forgiveness (no exceptions), and we forgive because we are forgiven. Being unwilling to forgive is not a matter of justice, or whether the other person deserves it. It is a matter of not recognizing one's own need for forgiveness, as well as the forgiveness one has already received.
So all of us have needed forgiveness at some points in our lives (I don't know any perfect people, and I am not one), and all of us have received it as well (or we would have no friends or family by now). And we've never deserved that forgiveness, as shown by the fact that we could not demand it. So we are all beneficiaries of unmerited forgiveness - in other words, of grace. By what arrogance, then, could we refuse forgiveness to someone else?

原谅和忘记:我从约翰和肯对他们的客人公然的粗鲁中吸取了教训。我能原谅他们吗?我想是吧，但他们的形象在我心中永远是污点。

你还好吗，肯?当我看到这篇文章的标题时，我忍不住想“所以……这是关于犯罪吗?还是Sinn-ing ?”有趣的页面…错过了这一事件。宽恕似乎是一个有点矛盾的话题。一方面，我们有许多精神传统的建议，宽恕所遭受的错误对受害者是有好处的。如果我受了委屈，并且能够原谅做错事的人，我就会受益:我没有怨恨，没有报复的意愿。基督教和佛教传统的某些解读似乎鼓励立即和无条件的宽恕，不管伤害你的一方的态度如何。另一方面，我们有很多故事，轶事(也许是杜撰的?)，关于被宽恕的变革性力量，甚至对先前不悔改的违法者也有影响。 Not long ago I saw a show on ...one of those cable channels...about a woman whose son had been murdered. Visiting the man convicted of the murder in prison, she told him it had been difficult, but she was able to forgive him for what he had done. Apparently the man had never shown remorse, but on hearing the mother of his victim say "I forgive you", he broke down weeping and THEN because remorseful and repentant.
所以宽恕似乎对每个人都有好处。我一直感兴趣的一件事是下面这种情况。以杀害自己兄弟的肯恩为例。假设这个人真的一直被他的所作所为所折磨。他真的很懊悔，忏悔，不管我们想让他怎样;如果他能回到过去，他宁愿自杀也不愿杀肯的哥哥。假设Ken也同样被他的怨恨，他想要报复的愿望所吞噬，持续地折磨着(也许杀人是特别残忍或虐待)。我们可以假设两个Ken都相信“如果我能原谅这个人，我就会失去这种强烈的复仇欲望”。凶手也可能会想:“如果他的哥哥能原谅我，我的心里就会轻松很多。”然而,……I can perfectly well understand Ken NOT being able to forgive the killer. Now, it seems interesting that we can think of cases where we wouldn't understand the inability to forgive, or, perhaps, we would disapprove of it. If someone makes a joke about me publicly that I take as a severe personal insult, such that even after he apologizes, explains why he thought it would be just an acceptable bit of humor, and shows all the signs of genuine remorse, I, out of wounded pride, just can't forgive him. I take it I would be thought unreasonable, overly sensitive, something of the sort. I take it no one would have such an attitude towards Ken, if he can't forgive his brother's killer, or a woman who was unable to forgive her rapist, or the victim of torture unable to forgive his torturer. We can admire someone who COULD forgive such things, perhaps even wish that we, and more people in the world, were able to do that. But while it seems that in the case of my being insulted by the joke, someone could get away with, or perhaps speak for the majority, by saying, "Oh, come on man, get over it", any such statement to a victim of rape, or of torture, would be seen as extremely inapporopriate. Even if I were to reply that YOU can have no idea how deeply the joke hurt me, how damaging it was to my psyche, how many sleepless nights it caused me, etc., to some extent, the worse the damage I tell you the joke did to me, the less respectable my recalcitrance appears. It was JUST A JOKE...etc. Perhaps we do a kind of projection..."If I were the victim of action A, would I be able to....". In the case of the embarassment caused by a joke, we imagine ourselves able to let it go. Perhaps because we can't really imagine what it would be like to have your brother murdered or to be raped, unless we've actually gone through such a trauma, we can't say..."Oh, sure, I would be able to forgive...".
It's an interesting topic.

在《向日葵》(The Sunflower)一书中，西蒙·维森塔尔(Simon Weisenthal)讲述了这样一个故事:一名垂死的德国军官叫来一名犹太囚犯，请求这名犹太人原谅他在大屠杀期间对犹太人犯下的暴行。这名囚犯最终决定，他不能原谅数以百万计的人，他们的生活被仇恨摧毁，而仇恨也活跃在这名军官身上。如果‘拯救一个生命就是拯救整个世界’，那么出于盲目的偏见和仇恨而摧毁一个生命就是摧毁整个世界。在9·11恐怖袭击中失去亲人的人们可以原谅他们所经历的痛苦，但不能以屠杀的名义原谅。
We can take the pain and grow. Ellie Wiesel, among many others, has made his Auschwitz experiences a springboard toward creating a world of caring responsibility and love. Many members of 9/11 families opposed the attacks against the Arab people because they would not have innocent people killed in their names. Redoing the world in response to injustice is a great healing act but does not imply the forgiveness of the perpetrators who must live with the consequences of their actions.
What do you think?
Bob