Replacing Freud
Feb 24, 2021关于无意识的信念、欲望和动机，最新的科学见解是什么?当代实验心理学家比弗洛伊德做得更好吗?还有比这更糟的吗?在本周的节目中，我们要问:是什么取代了弗洛伊德?
什么取代了弗洛伊德?
Sunday, February 28, 2021
What Is It
Although the concept that we can have thoughts and desires hidden from consciousness can be traced back to antiquity, it was Freud who truly popularized it in the twentieth century. Now Freud’s theory of the unconscious mind has mostly been abandoned for being unscientific and lacking in empirical evidence. So what has replaced it? Are newer theories that reference “automatic systems” or “implicit attitudes” any more scientific than Freud’s? And why is so much research about the unconscious mind being conducted in business schools? Josh and Ray are quite conscious of their guest, Blakey Vermeule from Stanford University, author of "The New Unconscious: A Literary Guided Tour."
Listening Notes
What’s the latest wisdom about the unconscious mind? Can modern scientists do better than Freud? Josh admits that Freud popularized the idea that we often don’t know why we do the things that we do, but he takes issue with the fact that many of Freud’s claims were unscientific and had no evidence. Ray pushes back by pointing out that science isn’t a static enterprise, and modern science is also struggling with a replication crisis.
哲学家们欢迎斯坦福大学英语教授布莱基·维默勒(Blakey Vermeule)来参加展览。布莱基认为，我们抛弃弗洛伊德的框架是一个严重的错误，因为它强调了对无意识思维的深度缺乏接触。雷提出了20世纪心理学家阿莫斯·特沃斯基(Amos Tversky)和丹尼尔·卡尼曼(Daniel Kahneman)的研究成果，布莱基解释了他们关于双过程大脑的概念。乔希问，尼采或米尔格拉姆等其他杰出人物的悲观主义是否可以与弗洛伊德的悲观主义相提并论。布莱基回应说，在后弗洛伊德的崩溃中，真正失去的是对创造意义的共同意识。
在节目的最后一部分，Josh, Ray和Blakey讨论了行为经济学，超越的重要性，以及人文学科的需要。雷想知道如何准确地定位意义，这促使布莱基强调，人类有一种巨大的需求，要把秩序强加给一个无序的世界。在弗洛伊德之后出现的新领域和研究中，布莱基认为人文主义者，那些讲故事和创造意义的人，在很大程度上被排除在对话之外。
- Roving Philosophical Report (Seek to 4:14) →Holly J. McDede seeks out testimonies about repressed and false memories.
- From the Community (Seek to 42:48) →Diane from Portland, Oregon questions the inherent cruelty in nature and the problem of evil.
Transcript
Transcript
Josh Landy
What's the latest wisdom about the unconscious mind?
Ray Briggs
Can modern scientists do better than Freud?
Josh Landy
还有比这更糟的吗?
Comments(8)
Harold G. Neuman
Tuesday, February 23, 2021 -- 4:38 AM
Opinion: I am not certain,Opinion: I am not certain, but replacement may not be an appropriate characterization. Freud posed interesting theories. Much of what he said was likely as good as anything else for the time. Seems to me that, if anything, neuroscience, psychology, and perhaps even philosophy have supplanted the good doctor. Just thinking, and advocating the devil.
Tim Smith
Thursday, March 4, 2021 -- 5:14 PM
Freud may be dead, but弗洛伊德也许已经去世了，但科学也没有太大的发展。价值危机、缺乏重复以及公众信心的丧失，使得一些可以治愈的病人寻求庸医。仍然有一些理论可以帮助我们。对某些精神疾病的认知行为疗法就是一个很好的例子。
Since Freud didn't have a scientific model, science can't necessarily replace his model with a better one. The current models aren't telling as compelling a story. That will be frustrating for humans. Some may prefer stories they understand vs. a science that says we just don't know. In either case it is best to listen to data and with some skepticism ... experts until we get a clearer picture.
These are Kahneman's own words - from Thinking, Fast and Slow.
“第一系统和第二系统是我在这本书中讲述的故事的中心，所以我必须绝对明确地说明，它们是虚构的角色。'
The new models are better than Freud because they don't pretend to be. Enough with the pretending already. I'm all in for uncertainty until I can get results that repeat. Even if I don't live to see that day.
A couple good reads that have helped me on this are:
Kandel, Eric R. (2018), The Disordered Mind: What Unusual Brains Tell Us About Ourselves, New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux, ISBN 9780374287863.
巴雷特，丽莎F(2017)，情绪是如何产生的:大脑的秘密生活。霍顿米夫林哈考特，ISBN 0544133315。
Barrett also has a more accessible book out last year... but it doesn't tell her story which is basically the same as Kandel's ... they both are trained psychotherapists who turned to neuroscience to retrain (both multiple times) to find answers. Both are very supportive of modern therapy, but not outside the data.
We are on the precipice of a revolution in our understanding of the brain, human body and previously squishy biology all yielding to imaging and modelling that will tell a story much better than Freud ever dreamed. We just aren't there yet.
Harold G. Neuman
Saturday, March 6, 2021 -- 3:53 PM
好工作,蒂姆。Not people好工作,蒂姆。不是我读过的人。尽管如此，我确信他们能提供很多东西。我的时间有限。对于其他的PT人，我想说的是:在PT主题的范围内，有一些重复和/或重叠的帖子，以略微不同的方式处理相关的话题:文化;经济;社会学;政治;和epiphenominal。如果你正在为某人的论文或论文收集研究资料，没问题。 Not my concern. Except for the fact that I need not share insights, for which my input will never get more than some vague footnote Other well-positioned folks, to whom
都对我的工作不感兴趣。好的。我读我读过的书;写我写的，为自己工作。这就是全部……
Tim Smith
Tuesday, March 9, 2021 -- 6:03 AM
There is more than thatThere is more than that Harold, but that will do for sure.
Harold G. Neuman
Friday, March 19, 2021 -- 4:40 PM
Still looking for a treatmentStill looking for a treatment of truth. Am working on that. Have wanted to see something here. It appears truth may be too abstract; too relative; too epiphenominal. I have offered a tract, as contribution, but have received no expression of interest. I get it. Mostly. This does not mean I think it
是可以理解的。正如我承认的，我是一个自学成才的人。我们中很少有人能改变建制派的教条。伯克是我生命中的典范。我相信还有其他人。但是哲学的领域太狭窄了?这怎么可能呢?Hmmmmmm……
LFOlsnesLea
Sunday, April 11, 2021 -- 10:06 AM
Useful tips:Useful tips:
Depression: abuses, torture, exposure to continuous threats
Schizophrenia: lack of morality, losing one's morality, "newer" self, difficulty to relate to morality and ethics
Insofar psychology is applied at all before psychiatry then one should relate to these above facts, more or less established.
Therefore the future of psychology in terms of diagnostics must run with psychiatry and its best practice.
这样一来，我们就不用再对精神病患者与父母等人的关系做出模糊的假设，而可以在大多数健康的人身上看到它的真实存在，他们可以自然地与这些问题联系起来，更不用说在伦理和道德上与这些问题联系起来，找到细微的差异和最佳的儿童教育。
End note: there's no use in trying to compete with psychiatry as psychiatry today (2021) is vastly superior to psychology in terms of healing patients from mental illnesses. Best wishes, Dr. Olsnes-Lea
Tim Smith
Friday, May 7, 2021 -- 11:18 AM
LFO,LFO,
If by useful, you mean truthful, then associating schizophrenia with morality is false.
这有什么用呢?精神分裂症是一种脑部发育疾病。一个临床医生只能通过这个镜头来看待患有精神分裂症的人的道德问题。精神分裂症患者难以面对现实。
You are pointing to clinical symptoms, perhaps? A lack of morality is not uniformly true to a diagnosis of schizophrenia as it might be for frontotemporal dementia (FTD), for example. Schizophrenia affects regions of the brain like FTD, but it can be treated, unlike FTD. It's important to stress that a person with a broken leg can't walk but still knows how to walk. A person with schizophrenia still has morality, unlike a person with FTD who tragically may have permanently lost their sense of social presence and moral compass.
Harold G. Neuman
Tuesday, February 1, 2022 -- 10:28 AM
This is not meant to ridiculeThis is not meant to ridicule a great mind. Only to poke a little fun. Years ago, a friend gave me some copies of prints. These included Maslow; Freud and one other science figure. The picture of Maslow, smiling, had a caption about the great man's amusement over hearing of self-actualization. The print of Freud, behind the wheel of a vintage automobile, was captioned with: Freud, going somewhere. I was younger. Did not know much about Freud. Still don't.
If I get it right, now, the pictogram was poking fun. Asking, perhaps: WHERE was Freud going?
I was not in tune with much double-entendre stuff then. At first, I found it annoying. Later, amusing. Still later, instructive. Funny how maturity does that.
弗洛伊德不需要被取代。他需要被纳入，如果这是恰当的说法。他告诉我们处理问题总是有不同的方法。这些不一定总是对的，但也不一定都是错的……