A Puzzle About Sacred Values Part II

08 November 2019

I wrote in arecent blog关于神圣的价值观,这似乎有令人困惑的特点。As noted, Scott Atran’s 2010 bookTalking to the Enemy记录了他在印度尼西亚穆斯林恐怖分子中的人类学工作。In one study he discusses, he gave his informants this problem, for which each informant would have to choose between two of the three options:

  1. Complete a successful, effective suicide bombing attack.
  2. 成功完成一次有效的非自杀式炸弹袭击
  3. Complete a holy, once-in-a-lifetime pilgrimage to Mecca.

这个谜题的产生是因为告密者通常选择2而不是1(非自杀式爆炸比自杀式爆炸更好);他们选择了3而不是2(去麦加朝圣比非自杀式爆炸要好);但他们选择了1比3(自杀式爆炸比去麦加朝圣要好)。

But both intuitively and according to standard axioms in formal theories of choice, we would expect our preferences to be transitive, meaning:If 3 > 2 and 2 > 1, then 3 > 1.

那么,当涉及到神圣的价值观时,我们该如何解释Atran的数据表明有些人似乎违反了传递性这一事实呢?

Atran himself seems to think that lack of transitivity is just a fact about sacred values. That might be a reasonable view. Lots of relations, after all, aren’t transitive. Theblood relativerelation, for example, isn’t transitive: if A is a blood relative of B and B is a blood relative of C, that doesn’t entail that A is a blood relative of C. So it could be that the comparative preferences that exist among sacred values just don’t have the orderly structure that transitivity would imply.

但我自己觉得这种观点并不令人满意,因为我不清楚拥有非传递性神圣偏好的好处(进化的、个人的或文化的)是什么。

One classic argument for why preferences are (or at leastshouldbe) transitive is known as the “money pump” argument, which is areductio ad absurdum. It starts by making the assumption that some preferences could be intransitive, and it derives an absurd consequence from that assumption. It goes like this. Suppose you prefer an apple to a banana, the banana to an orange, but the orange to the apple [thus violating transitivity]. If that were the case, I could pump money from you in the following way: if you started with the apple and I started with the orange and the banana, you would give me the apple plus a penny for the orange, since you prefer the orange to the apple. But then I could sell you the banana for the orange plus a penny, since you prefer the banana to the orange. After that, however, I could get you to give me the banana plus a penny in exchange for the apple, since you prefer the apple to the banana. But then we’re back to where we started! So if you had intransitive preferences about fruit (or whatever), that would allow me to pump money from you gradually but indefinitely. But that absurd scenario (or even something similar to it) doesn’t happen, which is good reason to think that preferences in general and for the most partaretransitive.

The money pump argument of course can’t apply specifically to the sacred choices from Atran’s study, since some of those choice only could ever be made once. Furthermore, other studies on sacred values have shown them to be insensitive to “deal sweeteners” (e.g., offering extra money or whatever doesn’t get people to budge from their sacred values). So the money pump argument is nowhere close to being a compelling argument against the idea that sacred values are intransitive. Still, it does highlight that there is something at least strange about the idea of genuinely intransitivepreferences, which in turn puts the burden on someone to say why there would be a preference system that violated transitivity. (Why, for example, would such a system have been supported by natural selection—either in biological or cultural evolution?) And after much trying, I still have a hard time seeing how that burden can be convincingly met.

So here’s what I think is going on instead.

当谈到解释人类选择的许多心理动机时,我们应该假设不同的心理系统,其中一个编码普通的、日常的功利偏好,另一个编码神圣的价值观。到目前为止,几乎每个关注神圣价值的人都会同意这两种截然不同的体系(或者至少是沿着这条线的一些东西)。My former student Adrian Pecotic, for example, also discusses the positing of two systems in his excellentMA thesis.

But what Atran doesn’t consider is the possibility that the survey responses he collected (that seem to show intransitivity) actually are evidence of his informants’oscillationbetween the two value systems. That is, for some of the choice problems he posed, his informants are relying on the sacred values system, but for others, they are relying on the ordinary utilitarian values system.

Recall the Daniel Kahneman line I quoted in Part I: “People don’t choose between things. They choose between descriptions of things.” If this is right, then in some cases people could be describing a given choice in their minds in a way that activates one system or the other, and the same choice might be described internally in two different ways.

Let’s focus on option 1, the suicide attack.

内部可以写成1u。或1 s。:

1u. Tactically effective attack in which one of our own soldiers is lost.

1 s。殉难。

重要的是,1 u。是一个描述,可能会激活普通的功利价值系统-一个响应数字,数量,增量成本和效益。1 s。当然,这是一种能够激活神圣价值体系的描述。

What I think is going on, then, is that the two choice problems involving option 1 (1 versus 2, 1 versus 3) tacitly activate different internal descriptions of 1.

When 1 is being compared to 2 (effective non-suicide attack), something like the 1u. description is activated in the mind of the person making the choice. So we have the following comparison as the first choice.

1u. Tactically effective attack in whichoneof our own soldiers is lost.

2u. Tactically effective attack in whichnoneof our own soldiers is lost.

These in turn are evaluated not by the sacred value system but by the utilitarian system, which easily evaluates 2u. as better, since no one from the home team dies in 2u.但是当1和3进行比较时,3将被认为是神圣的,现在将在这两种描述之间做出选择。

1 s。殉难。

3.朝圣。

与此比较,圣值系统值为1s。更多的高度。

With this framework in place, it’s also easy to explain why 3 > 2 appears in the data. The sacralizing description of 2 would be something like this.

2s. Jihad advances.

So it appears to me that the sacred value systems of Atran’s informants may be transitive (read over descriptions) after all. They value in this order:

1 s。(牺牲)> 3。(朝圣)> 2。(Jihad advances)

因此,在我看来,神圣价值之间的及物性的违反只是明显的——这是以下事实的产物:(1)功利主义价值体系也可以被招募来评估某些选择;(2)当功利主义价值体系被激活时,2u。> 1 u。

从技术上讲,这些看起来都很有趣。但你可能仍然想知道:什么是外卖信息?

The deeper message, it seems to me, is not just that human psychological systems can value the same thing differently under different descriptions (that is a deep point, but it’s been known in psychology for a long time). It’s rather that in one mind, two distinct value systems, each with their own coherent rules (like transitivity), cover overlapping domains, such that the same event (like a suicide bombing) can be assigned different priorities by the different systems, in relation to other events.

It is as if a priest and an economist live in the minds of each of us (including priests and economists), each with their own values, preferences, and ways of describing events. Given that, it is no wonder that we often find ourselves conflicted about matters of deep importance. It is also no wonder that hypocrisy is so common. That, however, is a story for a different blog.

Comments(8)


Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Saturday, November 9, 2019 -- 10:51 AM

啊哈!What we have here is an

啊哈!我们在这里看到的是所呈现的选择所代表的意义深度的升级(如果我们愿意为任何选择赋予意义的话)。这可能(也可能不)走向神圣价值的概念。然后考虑以下选项:完成一次成功的自杀式炸弹袭击有什么意义吗?这么说,你为了自己的利益,成功地炸死了一个人?你也很傻。你根本不关心成功,因为没有你的关心。2.一场成功的非自杀式炸弹袭击会更好,因为你活下来了。 You may, years later, feel good about what you accomplished. Or, you may feel rotten. It is hard to know, in advance, what time will wreak upon you and your past activities. 3. The pilgrimage has to be a hands-down winner on the scale of meaning. It is something to which many aspire and few are chosen---surely, goodness and mercy shall follow you for all the (subsequent) days of your life... That sacred values may be puzzling is not so puzzling after all. We have made them so---we and the ancestors who codified them in the first place...belief is an albatross, if it forces us to do numb-skulled things. (It is a shame that the albatross gets the bad rap)

RepoMan05's picture

RepoMan05

Sunday, November 10, 2019 -- 6:06 AM

This doesn't read as a non

This doesn't read as a non-objective analysis.

1. Is there anything at all meaningful about completing a successful suicide bombing?

对他们来说,这是一个双赢的局面。自杀式炸弹杀手的生活最糟糕的地方,要么是因为他们永远找不到妻子,要么是因为他们有太多的孩子(:除此之外,记住,这不仅仅是对炸弹杀手的双赢。对于一些团体来说,他们不仅在天堂里得到了一个地方,而且还得到了一整个付了钱的熏烟。杀死异教徒进入天堂的要求可以通过间接的方式实现。这就是为什么找到炸弹客的来源,然后炸了它,或者制作一个华丽的末日视频总是一个好主意。

Option 2
You necessitate a bombing you survive is better to them because they get to live. Like that just means they're cowards or something. But if you live to fight another day you can live to fight another day. A suicide bombing can only be done once. You can always do a suicide bombing later if you lived through the first one.

A pilgrimage is a selfish thing in contrast. Only you get the glory of it. No one else. And no matter how well indoctrinated a person might be, they'll always have enough doubt to consider how pointless it is. "oh boy, I get to walk around in a circle and look at a rock. Yippy!!!"

Rock scissor paper conundrums do actually exist so trying to make something serious out of this data is just dumb.

RepoMan05's picture

RepoMan05

Saturday, November 9, 2019 -- 6:29 PM

Is that what the data

Is that what the data presented represents? Or rather does it tend to represent that they haven't really thought about it that much? Perhaps it suggests bombers are just bored?

Rock scissors paper is a valid conundrum, but you have to be pretty bored to play it.

L Wakefield's picture

L Wakefield

Sunday, November 10, 2019 -- 3:07 PM

From the post: "It is as if a

这就好像牧师和经济学家生活在我们每个人的心中(包括牧师和经济学家),每个人都有自己的价值观、偏好和描述事件的方式。考虑到这一点,难怪我们经常发现自己在非常重要的事情上存在矛盾。"

This is like the Cherokee story of the two wolves. To paraphrase:

A boy asks the Chief: "Sometimes I see a person act good. And then at other times I see that same person act bad. What's going on?"

The Chief answers: "This is because each one of us has two wolves inside, a good wolf and a bad wolf, and they are fighting."

The boy: "Why do they fight?"

The Chief: "Each wolf wants to kill the other and win control of you."

男孩:“谁赢了?”

The Chief: "The one you feed."

These days there is clearly a lot of feeding the bad wolf. Perhaps a transitive relation can help.

在下面的对话中有两个类比。

Analogy 1:

A human life is like a painting. So it's the same kind of crime (in this context, murder by abortion) to destroy the painting when it is 90 percent complete as when it is 100 percent complete.

Analogy 2:

一个旋转的芭蕾舞女演员从幕布后面在台上跳舞。在很短的一段时间里,她跳着一个戏剧性的故事。最后,她透过幕布在舞台后面跳舞。

The stage is life. The ballerina is the self.

In (1), the painting is life. While in (2), the stage is life. Both analogies involve life that is painted by a painter.

In (1), the painter paints a painting. While in (2), the paintings become the scenery onstage.

In (2), the self dances on the stage of life, which involves the painter in analogy (1).

The attempt in the linked conversation is to offer a new dream of preference-- (2)-- which has as a part of itself the painter in the currently preferred (1).

The part-of relation is transitive.

Does this application of a transitive relation work?

Please see the conversation. (It's from a book club discussion on that site.)

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/the-dream-child-hypothesis.8135502/

RepoMan05's picture

RepoMan05

Sunday, November 10, 2019 -- 3:24 PM

When do people make decisions

When do people make decisions? When a favorable outcome is expected.

When all the imaginable outcomes seem favorable, that's when a decision is sure.

RepoMan05's picture

RepoMan05

Sunday, November 10, 2019 -- 3:19 PM

I'd doubt the accuracy of

I'd doubt the accuracy of this data.

Harold G. Neuman's picture

Harold G. Neuman

Thursday, November 14, 2019 -- 12:02 PM

All kidding aside, I'll stick

All kidding aside, I'll stick with what I said about Sacred Values, Part One: They are beliefs, and, as such, are not of an indelible piece with truth. This may be why the philosophers' search for truth becomes murky and muddled. You cannot compare truth with belief on any consistent basis, because personal agendas and interests are(or may well be) the antithesis of truth. It does not much matter what kinds of justifications are proffered for 'sacred values', when they lead to atrocity and abomination. Don't preach to me about ends, when the means are as ruthless as their perpetrators. There is irony in the fact that the cross and the switchblade bear resemblance to one another. Oh, and don't argue with yourself, just to see if someone is paying attention...

Tim Smith's picture

Tim Smith

Saturday, November 16, 2019 -- 3:27 AM

I'm with Atran on this one.

I'm with Atran on this one. I don't see signs of oscillation but that is testable.
Cross cultural comparisons are difficult and sometimes impossible to add value to or get meaning from without missing fundamental framing issues and memetic difference. Value is constructed and as Neil says sometimes deeply manipulated.
This is a constructed cultural intransitivity and not a manipulated one, I think. I don't know.
Closer to home, teenage suicide has intransitivity and urgency ... but that too is a story for a different blog.